Editorial Remembering... Planescape: Torment

[Lord Andre]

Perhaps one of you smart niggers might like to mention some of those great books that you read or enlighten me with an example of mature philosphy...

 

[Mrowak]

Worse writing than most books, worse gameplay than most games, highschool level philosophy and metaphysics.

How do you actually manage to underrate it?

You could approach it differently.

PS:T has better writing than most games, better gameplay than most contemporary western RPGs, and philosophy and metaphysics above the usual kidergarten-level.

Planescape writing can be rated 2/5 in literary standards. It's not much, but I think the only game that can compete with it is Betrayal at Krondor.

Also, with the philosophy it's pushing it. I don't think MCA or anyone sane claimed torment to be 'philosophical'. It merely touches upon certain issues (e.g. identity, morality, self-definition, being) on a very basic level. Fortunately, the contemplations are blended well into the setting so one can scarcely accuse PS:T of being pretentious.

 

[IronicNeurotic]

You people have been in some badass highschools.




Seriously, if I hear some internet people talking I'm pretty sure that I never finished basic education above kindergarden. My current College probably barely reaches highschool level.

 

[Micromegas]

Worse writing than most books,

It's not really worse than most books, worse than most books worth reading yes but the majority of books (especially ones published as Sci-fi/fantasy) aren't siginificantly better written. Besides it's a game and by the standards of other games it's superb.

worse gameplay than most games,

Apart from the (admittedly awful) combat the gameplay is fine, certainly better than what most games have for gameplay that isn't about killing.

highschool level philosophy and metaphysics

I've seen worse philosophy published and praised, and while not truly insightful it does have some ideas and something to say which puts it above the majority of other games.

How do you actually manage to underrate it?

By not comparing it to other games that are actually made. Yes novels/philosophy books are better in those areas but it isn't a novel or a philosophical essay, it's a game and in comparison to other games it's far above everthing else, it has its weak points but where it's strong it's better than virtually every other game that's been made.

If you know of other games that have better writing and do have great philosophical insights then I'd love to know what they are, but I've not played any game that even comes close to Planescape.

 

[Black Cat]

You could approach it differently.

PS:T has better writing than most games, better gameplay than most contemporary western RPGs, and philosophy and metaphysics above the usual kidergarten-level.

But then it would turn to be good for what it is instead of actually good.

Which goes to the point I have already said several times: It's not that Torment is an awful game. It isn't, and I actually enjoyed it for what it was. It's that Torment is completely blown out of proportion mostly because most other games are crap, not because it is the second coming turned game.

So I can't really consider it to be underrated, when the chorus of slurp slurp reaches the very heavens.

Also, with the philosophy it's pushing it. I don't think MCA or anyone sane claimed torment to be 'philosophical'. It merely touches upon certain issues (e.g. identity, morality, self-definition, being) on a very basic level. Fortunately, the contemplations are blended well into the setting so one can scarcely accuse PS:T of being pretentious.

I would not dare to call the fans sane, but Torment being philosophical and so incredibly deep is one of the first things that comes up every time someone mentions it around the web. And the metaphysics are retarded and simplistic, there's no way around it even if they belong to the setting and not to the story, so I can't fault MCA or whomever it was for it. However, that doesn't change the fact not small elements of the game are related to those same, and still retarded, metaphysics.

 

[Mrowak]

If you know of other games that have better writing and do have great philosophical insights then I'd love to know what they are, but I've not played any game that even comes close to Planescape.

I don't know about 'philosophical' insights but if you haven't give Betrayal at Krondor a try. Excellent storytelling (by gaming standards) coupled with good gameplay and amazing exploration. It's one of those games-phenomens - as with Planescape, once you finish it you'll scarcely find anything comperable - you'll wish you could forget your playthrough to experience it once again, anew.

 

[Black Cat]

If you know of other games that have better writing and do have great philosophical insights then I'd love to know what they are, but I've not played any game that even comes close to Planescape.

I don't know about 'philosophical' insights but if you haven't give Betrayal at Krondor a try.

This.

Betrayal at Krondor is amazing regardless of what you are looking in a role playing game. Story? Characters? Combat? Exploration? It has it all, and no element on it is below really good.

 

[Mrowak]

You could approach it differently.

PS:T has better writing than most games, better gameplay than most contemporary western RPGs, and philosophy and metaphysics above the usual kidergarten-level.

But then it would turn to be good for what it is instead of actually good.

Which goes to the point I have already said several times: It's not that Torment is an awful game. It isn't, and I actually enjoyed it for what it was. It's that Torment is completely blown out of proportion mostly because most other games are crap, not because it is the second coming turned game.

So I can't really consider it to be underrated, when the chorus of slurp slurp reaches the very heavens.

You have a point here. However, I would attribute the overblown love propaganda to the simple fact that there is no contender to the title. PS:T did a number of things best - better than the competition. Over so many years no game has managed to approach the heights Planescape soared to. We still hold it as a hallmark of what fantasy setting should look like, how characters should be portrayed, how to write dialogues without coming across as silly. This causes some of us to inflate its value.

Personally, I still have some hopes for PS:T killer - the game beating it in the said categories. With the current state of the industry the hopes have waned, though...

Also, with the philosophy it's pushing it. I don't think MCA or anyone sane claimed torment to be 'philosophical'. It merely touches upon certain issues (e.g. identity, morality, self-definition, being) on a very basic level. Fortunately, the contemplations are blended well into the setting so one can scarcely accuse PS:T of being pretentious.

I would not dare to call the fans sane, but Torment being philosophical and so incredibly deep is one of the first things that comes up every time someone mentions it around the web. And the metaphysics are retarded and simplistic, there's no way around it even if they belong to the setting and not to the story, so I can't fault MCA or whomever it was for it. However, that doesn't change the fact not small elements of the game are related to those same, and still retarded, metaphysics.

Actually, during all my stay here, I have never met anyone at the Codex who would claim that Torment is incredibly 'deep'. In each discussion we have had about the game all arguing sides have never expressed that it was a life-changing experience or such.

True, the metaphysics (i.e. as in the philosophy of being) are very simplistic, but I don't think ellaborating on them would benefit the game in any way. MCA simply took everything he needed to realise his vision, create the setting, populate it with characters and give the plot some serious spin. The whole point of the game was to embark on a mesmerising adventure, not to teach some profound lesson.

I disagree, however, with your saying that it was all 'retarded'. The approach taken was simple, serviceable, fitting perfectly the assumed convention - that of a computer game - but it was hardly fellacious or wrong. Besides, I don't know of any game that approached the subject matter better.

 

[Micromegas]

If you know of other games that have better writing and do have great philosophical insights then I'd love to know what they are, but I've not played any game that even comes close to Planescape.

I don't know about 'philosophical' insights but if you haven't give Betrayal at Krondor a try. Excellent storytelling (by gaming standards) coupled with good gameplay and amazing exploration. It's one of those games-phenomens - as with Planescape, once you finish it you'll scarcely find anything comperable - you'll wish you could forget your playthrough to experience it once again, anew.

I've been trying to get BaK for a while but I've not been able to find a copy on sale anywhere I've lloked. However I have heard good things about it so I'll have another look for it. I've seen books by the guy who's work it's based on but Ive always ignored them because they look generic, are they any good or is it just the game?

And I'm not really looking for philosophy in games, I get that from actual philosophy books, but it is nice when a story has something to say.

 

[Roguey]

We still hold it as a hallmark of what fantasy setting should look like,

how characters should be portrayed, how to write dialogues without coming across as silly.

 

[Mrowak]

If you know of other games that have better writing and do have great philosophical insights then I'd love to know what they are, but I've not played any game that even comes close to Planescape.

I don't know about 'philosophical' insights but if you haven't give Betrayal at Krondor a try. Excellent storytelling (by gaming standards) coupled with good gameplay and amazing exploration. It's one of those games-phenomens - as with Planescape, once you finish it you'll scarcely find anything comperable - you'll wish you could forget your playthrough to experience it once again, anew.

I've been trying to get BaK for a while but I've not been able to find a copy on sale anywhere I've lloked.

Actually Gog has it on sale. If you don't want to purchase a copy I would recommend some torrents.

However I have heard good things about it so I'll have another look for it. I've seen books by the guy who's work it's based on but Ive always ignored them because they look generic, are they any good or is it just the game?

Actually, the first four books by Feist are pretty cool. Lots of politicking, warfare, backstabbing etc. Only later it gets, much much worse. Although his novels are not some fantasy classics I would say they would make good games. As a matter of fact Feist actively cooperated with devs on BaK - the script for the game is his creation. In consequnce the game has some quality writing by author who, while not stellar, was at least competent, experienced and knowledgeable - which is far cry from what modern talentless twats, such as Gaider, have to offer.

And I'm not really looking for philosophy in games, I get that from actual philosophy books, but it is nice when a story has something to say.

Then BaK is certainly for you.

 

[Mrowak]

strawman

 

[Roguey]

How is using in-game examples to counter what you're saying a strawman? Are you trying to shape reality through your belief?

 

[Reptilian Shapeshifter]

There are actually a few movies/games that are quite profound in terms of what can be learned from them. They all require a high level of awareness to extract that meaning, however, which very few people possess.

The Truth is always veiled in this reality, hidden in metaphor. The surface reality that's presented to humanity is entirely false.

 

[malko_sundervere]

The philosophy in Planescape: Torment was ported directly from the Planescape multiverse, and it's as complex as the DM wants it to be. MCA simply wrote as deep in as was necessary for the game. It's silly to imply that it needs to be *deeper* than it is, because I don't play video games to have my mind expanded by complex philosophical queries. Planescape: Torment's philosophy side was hella interesting and pushed along the story in a great way - I honestly can't see a single problem with it.

 

[Lumpy]

Is it really necessary to report on every single one of these articles? I get what they're trying to do, but really, I'm pretty sure everyone on the Codex knows about PS:T already.

 

[Cup]

refreshing to see people prefer to read a book than a forum

I rather read a damn book.

 

[Eyeball]

Re: refreshing to see people prefer to read a book than a fo

Alright, I admit it:the writing in PST is not quite on level with Brothers Karamazov or Sinuhe the Egyptian or Mein Kampf or any other titanic work of literary art.

It is still the best written video game ever created. No other game even comes close. You can moan all you want about how it pales compared to the works whatever 12th century neo-existentialist writer you're particularly gay for, but that's just you being a smartass faggot for the sake of being a smartass faggot unless you can bring up any RPGs that leave PST in the dirt as far as writing is concerned.

 

[Mackerel]

As a matter of fact Feist actively cooperated with devs on BaK - the script for the game is his creation. In consequnce the game has some quality writing by author who, while not stellar, was at least competent, experienced and knowledgeable - which is far cry from what modern talentless twats, such as Gaider, have to offer.

If I had a nickel... Feist didn't write anything for BaK, it was Neal Hallford and John Cutter.

 

[mangsy]

It's been awhile since I've played either, but I remember Deus Ex 1 and 2 being pretty well-written, and the second in particular explicitly played on some (social & political) philosophy. I want to go back and replay them now, as I remember at the time I thought some of the stuff they were doing was pretty interesting. But maybe my memory is lying to me.

Anyway, as far as PS:T goes, yeah, it wasn't particularly deep (not that I can think of any game that is that thought-provoking), and it wasn't a literary masterpiece either. I do find it a bit funny that people are complaing about the metaphysics of PS:T though; I mean, isn't Sigil and the universe part of the Forgotten Realms setting? What a philosophical goldmine. (I also love how at least some people are bringing up Feist as a counterpoint to poor writing... As for Betrayal at Krondor itself, never could get it to work on my computer as a kid, so maybe it does a good job.)

I liked PS:T for some very simple reasons: the story, while a ham-fisted, was kinda cool; there were different sorts of approaches you could take towards beating the game; I liked the beginning (in a creepy mortuary, being followed around by a weird floating skull, etc.), which set a good tone; and it was motherfucking old-school. The "what can change the nature of a man?" stuff wasn't blowing my mind, but I rolled with it.

 

[Gragt]

I'd still be interested to see what exactly is wrong with the quality of writing in PS:T. From what I remember it may not be on the same level as Truman Capote but it is rather solid and does a good job at painting the way the various characters behave. And then it has moments of gravity, moments of introspections and moments of lighthearted humour. It may move a bit too slow at times, and focus too much on some insignificant details, but for the most part it works.

As for the philosophy bit, again what's wrong with it? If anything it's already superior to any dry philosophy book because it puts ideas in motions instead of leaving them inert, whatever the quality of these ideas may be.

 

[Stalinhater]

Re: refreshing to see people prefer to read a book than a fo

Alright, I admit it:the writing in PST is not quite on level with Brothers Karamazov or Sinuhe the Egyptian or Mein Kampf or any other titanic work of literary art.

 

[laclongquan]

Is it really necessary to report on every single one of these articles? I get what they're trying to do, but really, I'm pretty sure everyone on the Codex knows about PS:T already.

Several 2010 newfags in this thread say otherwise. Education the clueless is an unending battles.

 

[Sulimo]

We should institute an official codex law that states everyone who dismisses PST should simultaneously name several games they do like, so we know if we have to take their concerns seriously, or we can dismiss them out of hand.

 

[Alex]

To the people arguing about PS:T quality of writing, and how it made the game, it didn't. If it had, Melcar would have been right in saying that reading a book would have been better. The point here isn't that the game is incredibly written, that reading it is very pleasurable or that it raises deep issues during the story or even that it is a good story. The point is that the game is a good interactive story.

Frequently people will complain that you couldn't create your own character in Torment, that you were restricted to playing the nameless one. I disagree with that. If something, I think PS:T is the only game that came close to allowing me to create my own character, as in "part of a story" character. I couldn't name him, or change his appearance, and the "build" options were far from being as varied as, say, TOEE. However, I could, more than any game I played up to now, somewhat decide his personality, his role in the story. I could decide how he interacted with Ravel, what was his attitude toward Dak'kon and his circle, how he interacted with the people he had previously hurt, among many other things. In this, PS:T does something that even Fallout doesn't, for while Fallout gives you much more freedom, it doesn't insert your character into the story like PS:T. Of course there is a story in Fallout, but the main character is much less a part of it than TNO is part of PS:T's story. Planescape's strength then, is in how much freedom it gives you in interacting with the story while having a story at the same time.

So, the question here is what it is trying to be. If you come to PS:T expecting a game like Wizardry, with a few tactical challenges and a few good puzzles and a huge system to explore and toy with, you will obviously be disappointed. If, however, you want a good interactive story, there ain't anything better in the market than PS:T (of course, not counting table top RPGs, but those are a different kind of interactive story anyway). I don't think it is the best possible game we will have in this category. In fact, if video-game industry doesn't stay parked where it is forever, I hope to see much better interactive stories in the future, as better ideas of how to create interaction appear. However, for now, it is the best we have.

Black Cat mentioned that this might amount to saying that it is good for what it is. Of course, if you determine your criteria of what constitutes a good game narrowly enough, any game can be the best at what it does. Oblivion, for example, is the best game at being exactly like Oblivion. But Interactive Storytelling isn't an arbitrary measure, it is a concrete ideal many people on the codex have (or used to at least).

So people, stop saying Planescape is good because of its story. A good story is crucial in making PS:T a good game, but its heart is in its interactivity, not in anything static like writing or plot.

By the way, before anyone brings up those Japanese games (I think they are called Visual Novels), I wouldn't really consider them interactive stories. I have very limited experience with them, but the little I have, they proved to be very uninteractive, having arbitrary choices at arbitrary moments leading to arbitrary results. And giving very little control over your own character. Maybe they need to be judged from a different point of view, but as what I am calling interactive storytelling, Planescape is miles ahead of them.