So... Jap first person dungeon crawls?

[ForeverdarkWoods]

So, bros, broettes and various inbetweens. Here's the deal. I know pretty little about these jap games that supposedly exists that are supposed to be sort of like the old school dungeon crawlers that happen to be my favourite genre of RPGs.

Now, I really like this genre, but I've played all the obvious ones and I need some new stuff to play that isn't shit. There are some western ones I haven't played, probably. But from the obvious ones it appears that they are mostly of the real time variant, which usually makes them inherently inferior to the turn based crawlers. Then there are some really crappy ones, but I'd figure that the logical step is to look east to look for some weeabo crawlers that I might have missed, overlooked or simply never heard of.

So, this thread concerns the following:

What japanese crawlers exist? Are they any good? Why or why not? Similarities to western crawlers? Bonus points for less obvious ones.

TL;DR: Here we list japanese dungeon crawlers and discuss their merits. Crap or not crap and why??? sort of.

I've played these so I might as well add to the thread by sharing my impressions:

Arcana for SNES:

This is a really crappy dungeon blobber with ugly aesthetics. The fucktarded dungeon design manages to be incredibly frustrating but at the same time not difficult at all. In the minds of the game designers who came up with this, good dungeon design means artificially extending gameplay time by adding tons and tons of empty corridors that lead to dead ends, sporadically putting chests at the end of them just so you would go through them all (frustration factor of this goes up a few levels since you can't actually see anything at all that you aren't right on top of). Nothing interesting to be found here. I thought about LPing this, but choose to do the shit I'm doing now instead. Maybe I will at some other point (it's not like it's hard at all), but not likely. Shit tier blobber with few redeeming features. Next.

Shining in the Darkness for Mega Drive

Fairly okay dungeon crawler supposedly based on the Shining Force IP. It's nothing too special, but it's solid in all ways. Dungeon design is okay, but not phenomenal, customization is really limited, but that's nothing that really brings the game down significantly. Solid, but not great. I think someone on Codex has LP'd it, but I'm not sure.

Etrian Odyssey games for NDS

I have only a limited experience with the first game. It seems great. Aside from the fugly art style with pedoanime character portraits, this seems to have all those things I would look for in a dungeon crawler. Customization is good and there seem to be a great variety of viable party builds. Dungeon design from what I've seen is quite good. I only have one problem with it, and that's the fact that it seems to require lots and lots of grinding. There's quite a significant power gap between levels, and I've often found myself running in circles, fighting the same shit-easy enemies just to grind up enough EXP so that I can beat that F.O.E. that I know from experience in dying stands around the corner and will rape me violently as soon as I go around it. I think that exploration is an integral part of any good dugeon crawl, and if I play for two hours and don't make any kind of progress because I just run around in circles most of the time fighting easy enemies for shit EXP, that kind of ruins it for me, personally. Might give it another chance at some point, maybe I'm doing it wrong or it gets possible to overcome more massive obstacles using well-developed tactics later in the game.

The Dark Spire for NDS

Seems way better. This is one of the games I actively play right now. This is similar to a lot of older western titles and not so much to Etrian Odyssey. Created as an obvious homage to Wizardry, and it plays in a similar way. The interface is a little weird, and I sometimes wish you could speed up the animations (why does it have to take almost a second to go from one tile to another in graphics mode?). Aside from some of these minor issues though, it is really good. Highly reccomended. Comparisons to Wizardry are not out of place.

Shin Megami Tensei: Strange Journey for NDS

This one seems really interesting, although I haven't gotten far in it at all. My prior experience with the Megatens come mostly from Persona and I'm really enjoying this introduction to the more crawly megatens thus far. Seems fully solid, but I haven't gotten far, as I said.

And that about ends my experience with jap crawlers. Hoping for other suggestions. Let's incline the weeabo forum with crawler discussions.

 

[Gragt]

Don't forget Wizardry.

 

[circ]

I might be thinking of Arcana, but I remember one where you're a guy, and you're tasked by the king in some castle to do something. You pick up a chick along the way, something. Head to a village, and soon you're in FP mode, running around a dungeon. Seemed like the standard dungeon crawler to me.

 

[TheEntitledOne]

First person and with party and turn based combat? I don't know any that's really Wizardry like. But I kknow some similar ones.

Words Worth is First peson dungeon crawler with RT combat. PROS: Stallion! HE HEE HEE HEEE!

In Rance 6 you navigate in first person in the dungeons, combat is party and turnbased. Will get translated next year. A very solid game despite being porn. PROS: It's Rance!

Of course both games are NSFW.

 

[Whisky]

The Dark Spire for NDS

Seems way better. This is one of the games I actively play right now. This is similar to a lot of older western titles and not so much to Etrian Odyssey. Created as an obvious homage to Wizardry, and it plays in a similar way. The interface is a little weird, and I sometimes wish you could speed up the animations (why does it have to take almost a second to go from one tile to another in graphics mode?). Aside from some of these minor issues though, it is really good. Highly reccomended. Comparisons to Wizardry are not out of place.

I've been meaning to try that. I just ordered it online (Wasn't cheap...).

Shin Megami Tensei: Strange Journey for NDS

This one seems really interesting, although I haven't gotten far in it at all. My prior experience with the Megatens come mostly from Persona and I'm really enjoying this introduction to the more crawly megatens thus far. Seems fully solid, but I haven't gotten far, as I said.

And that about ends my experience with jap crawlers. Hoping for other suggestions. Let's incline the weeabo forum with crawler discussions.

Strange Journey is fantastic and is one of my favorite Megaten games.

If you want something similar, try SMT1 and SMT2 for the SNES. Be warned though, SMT1 is VERY glitchy when emulated and you don't really notice until later in the game (First glitch is that with the translation patch, the first gun shop won't work. Second glitch I encountered is that in late-game, sometimes my alignment will reverse. I was going for a Law run and then all of a sudden I was pure Chaos), also it lacks a dedicated map button, so you have to go into the menu to look at the map. SMT2 on the other hand, isn't glitchy and has a map button.

Both of the games lack stuff that was added later, such as the ability for demons to level up. But they are both very interesting and very fun.


On another note, I've never actually played an Etrian Odyssey game, but I keep hearing they're great. Should I start with the first or the latest?

 

[Giauz Ragnacock]

If you are interested in a classic Ultima-style (having overworld map and overhead view towns but with fp dungeons and combat) I recommend Phantasy Star 1 for the Sega Master System. It's easy, grindy, and a little bare-bones, but I really had a lot of fun figuring out NPC dialogue clues. Also, the buttery smooth way dungeon crawling and even fleeing from combat and falling down pits is handled cannot be beat in the 2D medium (sure makes keeping track of your location in your head more viable... for me atleast) .

 

[Gragt]

Well, if we go for perverted stuff, there is also Lightning Warrior Raidy. Pretty much a single character Wizardry (yes, it's as boring as it sounds) with a crappy story and not many combat options. It's purely grind based, and you must hang around each dungeon level to kill weak enemies in order to level up and not be massacred in one hit by the monsters of the next dungeon level. No automap so you must draw one yourself. However, each monster is a female that you see naked when you kill it, and that's cool.

I heard that the sequel, Lightning Warrior Pikachu Raidy 2, was better, but I have yet to play it.

 

[ForeverdarkWoods]

Don't forget Wizardry.

Well, I guess the jap Wizardry knockoffs qualify for this thread. Know if any of those are anything close to decent?

The Dark Spire for NDS

I've been meaning to try that. I just ordered it online (Wasn't cheap...).

Well, the interface issues are, as I said, the main thing bringing it down. The weirdest stuff is all of those things that come down to straight up trial and error. The mechanics are anything but transparent. Weapons don't tell you what their damage are, leaving you to the tactic of "if it sells for more, it must be better", which upon consulting the Dark Spire wiki turns out to be false unless there's more to the really expensive weapons that the game doesn't tell you about. The only info you have on your characters are your stats, your AC, your level and the amount of hit points. All the other values are hidden, such as THAC0 and stuff, and it also doesn't really tell you how it calculates anything or really what the stats actually do, so I just assume it works kind of like DnD. Some weapon types do more damage to certain enemies, but the game doesn't tell you about this, or when it happens, so it's all a matter of trial and error. Aside from slow animations, I'd say this is the biggest issue.

On another note, I've never actually played an Etrian Odyssey game, but I keep hearing they're great. Should I start with the first or the latest?

Well, if you like or at least can stomach lots of grinding, start with the first one. Otherwise, maybe try some of the others. They might be better in this regard. Also, poison is a lifesaver and saves you lots of grinding since it's really powerful..

 

[deuxhero]

I enjoyed the first EO a lot... then I hit floor 7 or something and I started getting ambushed by enemies who would put my entire party to sleep and kill them before I got a single action. There is no way to prevent this either: There are no items that reduce the chance of sleep. There is a skill to reduce ambush rate, but even with it at a normal level, the ambush rate is pretty fucking high.

If it was a one time problem I wouldn't care, but it happens any time I try to pick the game back up.

Arcana for SNES:

This is a really crappy dungeon blobber with ugly aesthetics. The fucktarded dungeon design manages to be incredibly frustrating but at the same time not difficult at all. In the minds of the game designers who came up with this, good dungeon design means artificially extending gameplay time by adding tons and tons of empty corridors that lead to dead ends, sporadically putting chests at the end of them just so you would go through them all (frustration factor of this goes up a few levels since you can't actually see anything at all that you aren't right on top of). Nothing interesting to be found here. I thought about LPing this, but choose to do the shit I'm doing now instead. Maybe I will at some other point (it's not like it's hard at all), but not likely. Shit tier blobber with few redeeming features. Next.

Hard to believe it's from the same team that brought us Kirby Super Star.

 

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

Some questions to those "in the know":

How is Labyrinth of Touhou, gameplay-wise? I've heard good things about it, and I generally love blobbers/crawlers. I don't care much about the anime cutesy stuff, I prefer Western cRPG type of graphics but I can bear the lolis if the gameplay is good. I also know absolutely nothing about Touhou and related games.

Also, how the hell do I get it to work? The downloads/translations I've tried so far didn't even start on my PC.

 

[malko_sundervere]

How is Labyrinth of Touhou, gameplay-wise? I've heard good things about it, and I generally love blobbers/crawlers. I don't care much about the anime cutesy stuff, I prefer Western cRPG type of graphics but I can bear the lolis if the gameplay is good. I also know absolutely nothing about Touhou and related games.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...ardcore-pc-dungeon-crawling-experience.60646/
In my opinion, LoT is awesome but broken.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Some questions to those "in the know":

How is Labyrinth of Touhou, gameplay-wise? I've heard good things about it, and I generally love blobbers/crawlers. I don't care much about the anime cutesy stuff, I prefer Western cRPG type of graphics but I can bear the lolis if the gameplay is good. I also know absolutely nothing about Touhou and related games.

Also, how the hell do I get it to work? The downloads/translations I've tried so far didn't even start on my PC.

Game is very good. Postgame is absurd and not worth thinking about. Highly recommend checking the spell list files included with the game/on the wiki, in game info is shoddy.

 

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

Thanks for the opinions.

Guess I'll give installing/setting up another try, then.

 

[LeStryfe79]

This is a good Japanese Wizardry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wizardry:_Tale_of_the_Forsaken_Land

 

[ForeverdarkWoods]

This is a good Japanese Wizardry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wizardry:_Tale_of_the_Forsaken_Land

From the description it looks like it could be something. You know if it emulates well on PCSX2?

 

[LeStryfe79]

No idea, but a lot of others around here have played it so I would guess so.

 

[eric__s]

It's very good and it introduces a lot of clever mechanical changes to the Wizardry formula. One of the best is the use of monster components to make spells. Monsters all drop different items that you can put together to make spell scrolls, which you use to learn new spells. You can upgrade spells by making copies of the spell scrolls and this is really good because it allows you to keep lower level spells relevant. In a lot of other Wizardry games, lower level spells get replaced entirely by higher level spells and you end up never using them, but in Tale of the Forsaken Land, as long as you keep upgrading them, they'll remain useful throughout the game.

It also introduces quests, which often have good rewards and can make permanent changes to the labyrinth (like opening a shortcut or creating a healing spring or whatever). Even though the quests are pretty standard (kill dude, find x), they add goals to exploration; they give you things to do in the labyrinth other than getting stronger or going further.

The game also has formation attacks that require multiple people. Generally these attacks aren't very damaging but have a specific utility - one might be for disabling back row casters, another might deflect attacks, another could preemptively shoot an enemy before they attack. They're smart and add more strategic depth to the game. These attacks require characters to have a minimal level of trust, which they gain the longer they're in the party, so you can't just do these whenever you want.

Except for 3 randomly generated levels, all of the labyrinths are very well designed and fun to explore. The story and characters are unobtrusive and never require anything from you other than to go forward. Although the story is largely non-existent, there is a reveal at the end of the game that I think is really cool and reminds me a little of Planescape: Torment.

I think it's one of the best Wizardry games and except for occasional goofiness, there's not much anime melodrama. Definitely check it out, it did a lot of cool stuff that most dungeon crawlers still haven't picked up on.

 

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

cboyardee so does it run on an emulator?

 

[eric__s]

No idea, probably.

 

[LeStryfe79]

Plus it has an endless dungeon after you beat it. It's kinda easy for a wizardry game though, so I only used 3 characters.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Etrian Odyssey III is p awesome (apart from the horribad "art" of course), I definitely like it more than the other mentioned NDS crawlers, though they are good as well. The amount of class and skill combos you can come up with is staggering and they added subclassing to the mix. There is a very good skill planner available online and it's a must, since traditionally to the series, the ingame descriptions don't tell shit and you might end up with investing hours of gameplay into something that doesn't work. With good team the grinding is not necessary at all, and if you want to grind (to develop new characters for the guild for example) you can do it comfortably on the sea bosses that can be killed as many times as you wish without any respawn intervals.

EO IV came out in Japan just a few days ago, but only for the trainwreck of a hardware that is 3DS.

There was also a game called Unchained Blades released for PSP recently. The only thing I know about it is that the art direction is even worse than in EO series, but it's supposed to be a decent crawler. Anyone tried it?

 

[SuicideBunny]

cboyardee so does it run on an emulator?

You know if it emulates well on PCSX2?

the image i had didn't even want to start after some extensive tweaking. if either of you finds a working one or the correct settings, drop me a pm pls.

 

[Rpgsaurus Rex]

Etrian Odyssey III is p awesome (apart from the horribad "art" of course), I definitely like it more than the other mentioned NDS crawlers, though they are good as well. The amount of class and skill combos you can come up with is staggering and they added subclassing to the mix. There is a very good skill planner available online and it's a must, since traditionally to the series, the ingame descriptions don't tell shit and you might end up with investing hours of gameplay into something that doesn't work. With good team the grinding is not necessary at all, and if you want to grind (to develop new characters for the guild for example) you can do it comfortably on the sea bosses that can be killed as many times as you wish without any respawn intervals.

I sort of gave up on EO3 seeing how my party (which I built entirely around stuff that looked and sounded cool) was useless on levels below 1, getting raped by everything that moves. Guess I need to plan ahead next time before I give it a try.

In fact that's my biggest gripe with Jap crawlers, the need to metagame the shit out of them instead of being able to adapt on-the-go.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Yeah, that happened to me as well, a few times even The worse thing is that some of the skills really sound great, but then it turns out that the numbers attached to them make them virtually useless, though I feel they cut down on that when compared to previous parts where you had extreme cases like autoheal skill that sounded like best thing ever and then turned out to be 1hp per round for every skill point invested.

http://www.intothelabyrinth.net/etrianodyssey3/skillsim/

This basically gives all the info you need, you can plan your own party without consulting the guides and be effective for a whole game without grinding. Just remember to have a hoplite

 

[SuicideBunny]

There was also a game called Unchained Blades released for PSP recently. The only thing I know about it is that the art direction is even worse than in EO series, but it's supposed to be a decent crawler. Anyone tried it?

it's quite ok if you can stomach your crawler having a reaction based minigame which is absolutely required and not optional at all (it's used to recruit enemies and you do need a certain amount of followers to progress past certain points in the dungeons and certain kinds to unlock the more powerful skills of your characters) and it has humor similar to the first disgaea (a good thing), meaning it'S not quite as terribly bad in terms of characters as typical japanese games.