Opening vignettes

[Volourn]

Alignment is a tool; not a straightjacket. If one remembers this; it shouldn't cause a problem. You should think "my character has a good alignment is because he does good things"; NOT "my character does good things because he has a good alignment". A character, or party should never be wholely defined by his alignment as it goes against the spirit of the D&D alignment spirit. At least, imo, but I guess there are others who want alignment to be hard coded and all LG characters are holy warriors; and all CE fellows are pyschotic mass murderers.

Anyways, tangent aside, VD, I'll answer your question now. :D Yes, I'd much prefer that they'd take the "vignette" idea and expand on it. Developing a motivation would still be its main purpsoe; but I would allow the PC(s) to still make the ultimate choice. Of course, this would take more work by the devs; but oh well. I could live with a much shorter vignette if they didn't stereotype all characters of the same type ala TOEE and they actually mattered in the grnad scheme of the game as my examples above illustrate.

Spazmo, it's technically multi headed monster; but can be called 5 (or 6) headed monster depending the actual number of party member sbeing controlled by a single player. People are right when they state D&D is primarily a party based game; but it is also primarily supposed to be played with characters controlled by different players; not the same one so they don't become the dreaded multi headed monster thing ala IWD or TOEE (though TOEE did have some slef controlled npcs); or even BG and PST to a lesser degree. This is where FO, and NWN wins out as even though the AI in both games have weaknesses at least for the most part the npcs are their own freaks.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

and all CE fellows are pyschotic mass murderers.

Or murderers who kill for money.

 

[Volourn]

Still stereotyping. Both Sarevok, and Irenicus are CE; and neither killed simply for gold; and though both killed a mass number of creatures; they sure didn't do it for because they wereout of their minds pyschotic in the sense they didn't what they were doing and had no purpose. See, please don't streotype the poor little CE. Ya hurt their feelings.

 

[chrisbeddoes]

vignettes ?

Ok the problem is that too many vignettes 9 existed with too little content.

It would be berrer if only 3 vignettes existed but with more content and choices.


For example The good aligment vignette that you could choose to face in the lawful , neutral and chaotic way.

The neutral aligment vignetts that you could choose to face in the lawful , neutral and chaotic way.

The evil aligment vignette that you could choose to face in the lawful , neutral and chaotic way.



3 vignettes much more content for each.

Plus i did NOT like the way the parties were implemented.

The best way would be .

You choose between the 3 aligments ,
YOUR choice in the vigniete choose the law aligment.

If you are good say 3/5 members must be good they others can be anything but they will complain but not leave when you do good stuff blah blah.

The way it was implemented in TOEE was too complex.

 

[Volourn]

Better yet; your alignment doesn't choose your actions or vignettes; but your actions determine your alignment (as it should be); and vignettes can be based on other stuff discussed here like race, skills, etc., etc..

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Still stereotyping. Both Sarevok, and Irenicus are CE; and neither killed simply for gold; and though both killed a mass number of creatures; they sure didn't do it for because they wereout of their minds pyschotic in the sense they didn't what they were doing and had no purpose. See, please don't streotype the poor little CE. Ya hurt their feelings.

Tell it to Bioware :wink:

 

[Spazmo]

Better yet; your alignment doesn't choose your actions or vignettes; but your actions determine your alignment (as it should be); and vignettes can be based on other stuff discussed here like race, skills, etc., etc..

Exactly. I feel choosing an alignment is silly. Better to have the game react to your actions and assign you an alignment to give you an idea of how you're doing. PS:T did this well, but I still don't like having my character's entire disposition summed up in two words. I think it's easier to just use a number that gives you a general idea of what a bastard/nice guy you are and leave the rest up to you.

 

[Volourn]

Thats' the point. Alignment is NOT suppsoed to summarize a character's entire disposition in two words. If that's how someone uses alignment (ie. most crpgs); they are using alignment wrong.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Exactly. I feel choosing an alignment is silly. Better to have the game react to your actions and assign you an alignment to give you an idea of how you're doing. PS:T did this well, but I still don't like having my character's entire disposition summed up in two words. I think it's easier to just use a number that gives you a general idea of what a bastard/nice guy you are and leave the rest up to you.

I think that lawful evil is better then say "- 60". I prefer alignments vs karmic numbers because it has shades, while the numbers are just getting progressively higher with every other deed. Anyway, I don't care much about alignments, I simply believe that they are better then karmic numeric system. I prefer and use in my own games reputation system that associates players with events (quests, deeds, etc). You're good and able as long as people think that you are good and able, etc

 

[Walks with the Snails]

I don't really like alignment shifting in the middle of a game, either. It's like saying you're a blank slate for the 18+ years you lived before picking up a sword and then saving/slaughtering a few villagers equals the sum total of your morality. Alignment's handy enough at describing what you aspire to and how others probably tend to look at you, but everyone slips up sometimes. It's not like it's that restrictive in the context of a CRPG, anyway. I've yet to see a game where choosing lawful good vs. chaotic evil meant some invisible force guided or stayed the hand of my character when I tried to do something naughty/nice. That would be carrying alignment too far, but it doesn't happen, so what's the big complaint? It's hardly a straitjacket. That usually comes from game designers coming up with silly ideas like, "Well, no one would ever want to be evil so why bother making it an option? Just throw in a little smartass dialogue here and there."

 

[Voss]

Diverting a bit... what is the big attraction to playing evil these days? Its been a major FEATURE in many games for the past several years, but whats the big deal?
I've messed around with the evil pathes from time to time, but it often devolves into a round of slaughter everything (which gets dull), or a slightly different path that gets forced back on to the main line of the plot after a minor diversion.
So, any theories, ideas, or opinions?

 

[Spazmo]

I don't really like alignment shifting in the middle of a game, either. It's like saying you're a blank slate for the 18+ years you lived before picking up a sword and then saving/slaughtering a few villagers equals the sum total of your morality.

Well, I'd see the karma scale as not who you are but rather how the world outside sees you. Until you picked up that sword, you're nobody and haven't done anything that anyone might care about. Your hometown might like you--Fallout 2 showed this by giving you Idolized status from the start in Arroyo, though I'd make it more Accepted or Liked if you're not a Chosen One--but the rest of the world has never heard of you, ergo your karma is 0.

 

[triCritical]

Diverting a bit... what is the big attraction to playing evil these days? Its been a major FEATURE in many games for the past several years, but whats the big deal?
I've messed around with the evil pathes from time to time, but it often devolves into a round of slaughter everything (which gets dull), or a slightly different path that gets forced back on to the main line of the plot after a minor diversion.
So, any theories, ideas, or opinions?

I don't think people know what it means to play evil. Sometimes I want to play like Bill Gates. Basically, lawful evil. You know get really rich and powerful by manipulating contracts/licenses, stealing, opressing computer users, and flooding the market with over cheap products to get to that point...

Of course most games don't let you play Bill Gates evil, they make you play Freddy Kruger, and that really isn't a lot of fun.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

I'd like to play a Bill Gates type of evil in games as well. Personally, I'd buy up property and charge outrageous rent until the locals can no longer pay me. I kick them the hell outta the place, or put them to work. Then I'd develope the land and sell it to wealthy lords and princes for 10x what I bought it for. Or perhaps I'd build a casino/brothel/tavern/inn in the middle of the land, and put the local guards and law enforcement on my payroll, then I could force the peasants to elect a stooge to mayor of the town, and he would work for only me!!. It would be FUN to be a lawful evil character.

 

[triCritical]

I'd like to play a Bill Gates type of evil in games as well. Personally, I'd buy up property and charge outrageous rent until the locals can no longer pay me. I kick them the hell outta the place, or put them to work. Then I'd develope the land and sell it to wealthy lords and princes for 10x what I bought it for. Or perhaps I'd build a casino/brothel/tavern/inn in the middle of the land, and put the local guards and law enforcement on my payroll, then I could force the peasants to elect a stooge to mayor of the town, and he would work for only me!!. It would be FUN to be a lawful evil character.

The beauty is that playing lawful evil is completely within the realms of the law. Hence, your manipulative abilities to get what you want using your questionable morality and manipulating the peasants can never really get you in trouble.

I should mention that M$ has lost most of their court cases. So it is difficult to say if they truly were evil within the law.

 

[Voss]

They were within the law, but the decisions in those cases change the situation so that those particular circumstances are no longer lawful, and can't be continued.
Unless appealled, worked around or loopholed. Or if they continue it, and no one brings future cases to court.

Precedent based law is fun.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

Yeah, Tri, but I'd still like to buy the local law enforcement for the purposes of intimidation, when necessary of course. I'd also get the stooge mayor to appoint stooge judges. The town would be mine!!!HAHAHAHHA

 

[Lorica]

It's occurred to me that this vignette system would work fairly well in a cRPG that used Darklands' character generation system. All the professions possible to select for a character falls into one of roughly six broad categories (Military, Noble, Religious, Academic, Mercantile and Urban). Childhood information already affects the career paths available to the player. The chosen career path could be averaged to give a reasonable vignette scenario or just the last one selected. The categories might have to be reworked to provide a starting area--military camp, underworld den, noble court, and market place, to pick a generic few, could cover all available occupations with just a stroke of a text-based intro.

Where you go from there would depend on the game, of course, but it's a nice natural pairing of character system and structure that could make good sense without creating hair-pulling numbers of possible scenarios for the designers.

 

[Horus]

Your post was too long, so i didn't read it

What are you doing in a internet forum if you can't even read that short post?

 

[copx]

I like vignettes, but it annoys me when you choose a vignette only for your character background to become irrelevant as you enter the primary questline. It always undoes the charm of a vignette when the game moves on from giving your character a personal background, motivations, etc. to treating your char generically. So for me the problem with vignettes isn't usually the vignette itself but how much consideration it receives afterwards. Heck, I'd be happy with your run-of-the-mill text backgrounds over vignettes if I feel like those backgrounds are actually kept into account.

C&C man. It's no good when you only have the first half.

What are you doing in a internet forum if you can't even read that short post?

What are you doing on the Codex if you're taking Prosper seriously?

 

[Horus]

What are you doing on the Codex if you're taking Prosper seriously?

Half of the codex is other half's alt so how can i know who's who.

 

[felipepepe]

How you guys even find these threads?