PAX South panel discussion/live chat thread (12:30 CST, 19:30 CET)

[hiver]

the magic of the ignore button. Just tried and it really is awesome.

ROFLMAO, here I was thinking that he ignored hiver. Noep.

Isnt so funny now... when the tables have turned, EH?

I know everyone likes to crack jokes about presenters not knowing how to play the game, but you guys do realize that:
/snipped
Anyways, not too butthurt (just a little), but I never get a chance to post a response to this stuff. Time for me to head back to work where I can spend all day casting fireballs on fire elementals.

Of course we do. Its just that trolls and dumbasses are the ones who will be first to post such stupid crap, and or scream about it, because they are dumb.

Honestly, i always wondered why you devs dont just make it clear before you show it off to audiences. Especially in cases like this when you dont have publisher PR gestapo hanging over you.
It woudlnt take anything more then a few quick sentences like you just said.

Just imagine how many dumb mouths would clamp down automatically

 

[badler]

In a little over a month we are going to be doing a panel for PAX East. The format doesn't need to be the exact same thing, but it should probably be similar. Is there anything, in particular, that you might want to see us show off? For the south panel we tried to show off some funny situations that people might find interesting.

I was thinking that we might try to show off a bit more C&C. Just let the crowd choose the options.

 

[Roguey]

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/70166-apologies-to-obsidian/page-5#entry1562689

There have even been a handful of occassions where devs themselves asked us to remove extremely blunt criticism and we refused for that very reason.

Which delicate flowers at Obsidian wanted mean criticism removed?

I know everyone likes to crack jokes about presenters not knowing how to play the game, but you guys do realize that:

1. These are total gimmick parties. We don't build them like you would build a normal character/party. Almost everyone in that party was made to have big boom spells. You'll notice that I mostly used AoEs that had crazier VFX. I would never play like that in a real playthrough. Can't speak for Adam, though.
   
2. We can't actually play the game like we normally would. We have to constantly be moving things around on screen. We can't take our time because it would end up being pretty boring to 80% of the people watching. Normally, when I play, I take a long time with each battle because I want to make sure that I get all of my crew into position. I also wouldn't be spamming a bunch of AoEs.
3. I don't know all of the spells/abilities/talents by icon just yet.
4. Most of us aren't professional presenters and it is pretty nerve-wracking having a ton of people watch you play the game live.

Anyways, not too butthurt (just a little), but I never get a chance to post a response to this stuff. Time for me to head back to work where I can spend all day casting fireballs on fire elementals.

Perhaps the gameplay should have been presented by someone who had the time/drive to practice those three battles for hours so they could repeat their performance perfectly. ^_^

 

[hiver]

Shut the fuck up Rogey. Nobody cares and nobody wants to hear it, especially here you fucking shitbrain.

In a little over a month we are going to be doing a panel for PAX East. The format doesn't need to be the exact same thing, but it should probably be similar. Is there anything, in particular, that you might want to see us show off? For the south panel we tried to show off some funny situations that people might find interesting.

I was thinking that we might try to show off a bit more C&C. Just let the crowd choose the options.

That would be very nice.

If you could set up some situation so we get to see some immediate short term C&C and later on another situation that would show long term or global C&C influenced by those first choices that would be great.
Even if its just a small example.

Maybe show an attack on the Stronghold? I dont think youve shown that yet.

And if possible, one small combat where the party is completely normal as would be in normal gameplay, and someone plays it tactically, slowly as needed. Its fine to see all the flashy options of high levels but we do want to see how tough the combat is in some sort of usual gameplay.
I dont think anyone would mind if it was a bit longer. Although of course, whoever does it can practice that same encounter so it doesnt take too long.

 

[Infinitron]

I was thinking that we might try to show off a bit more C&C. Just let the crowd choose the options.

You can do that, but keep in mind that people on this forum will find the PAX crowd's applause and cheering method of voting to be awfully boorish!

But if you do, I suggest demonstrating a situation in the game where the C&C leads to some kind of amusing double-cross or some other form of "factional intrigue" type situation. That's the kind of C&C the Codex really likes.

 

[Bleed the Man]

I know everyone likes to crack jokes about presenters not knowing how to play the game, but you guys do realize that:

1. These are total gimmick parties. We don't build them like you would build a normal character/party. Almost everyone in that party was made to have big boom spells. You'll notice that I mostly used AoEs that had crazier VFX. I would never play like that in a real playthrough. Can't speak for Adam, though.
   
2. We can't actually play the game like we normally would. We have to constantly be moving things around on screen. We can't take our time because it would end up being pretty boring to 80% of the people watching. Normally, when I play, I take a long time with each battle because I want to make sure that I get all of my crew into position. I also wouldn't be spamming a bunch of AoEs.
3. I don't know all of the spells/abilities/talents by icon just yet.
4. Most of us aren't professional presenters and it is pretty nerve-wracking having a ton of people watch you play the game live.

Anyways, not too butthurt (just a little), but I never get a chance to post a response to this stuff. Time for me to head back to work where I can spend all day casting fireballs on fire elementals.

As someone who has made a comment about your ability playing the game, I would like to clarify why I did it.
The last stream with Josh was preety good to get a better look of how combat looks, and even in this forum you can see a lot of people who have been very critical with the combat system say that it looked a lot better/less clusterfucky. Now, a panel and a stream are very different things, but having an overleveled party fighting enemies clearly below your level and spamming abilities without much though isn't particulary good to get a chance to evaluate a bit more the combat of PoE. In fact I was a bit bored watching the combat scenarios from the panel to be honest, and something similar happened to me when you made a stream with Jesse Cox, who obviously wasn't very good at the game, and it wasn't the greatest thing to watch him fight.

I don't really know how good playing the game you really are (nor I want to know) and playing for a crowd is a very different thing than playing alone, and the last thing I want is to judge people capabilities with something just by watching a simple video (and offend that person, you, in the process), but my point is that it would have been more interesting that if those combat scenarios you showed were played by someone more familiar with the system and without having your characters too overleveled for what you're showing.

 

[hiver]

Yeah, ... you guys seem like you still havent figured out what kind of crowd are you dealing with. Slow, careful tactical combat with low level abilities? It is heaven.

And since you already showed the flashy stuff... no need to do it again.

 

[badler]

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/70166-apologies-to-obsidian/page-5#entry1562689

There have even been a handful of occassions where devs themselves asked us to remove extremely blunt criticism and we refused for that very reason.

Which delicate flowers at Obsidian wanted mean criticism removed?

Perhaps the gameplay should have been presented by someone who had the time/drive to practice those three battles for hours so they could repeat their performance perfectly. ^_^

Not really sure which posts/devs that mod is talking about. The development team doesn't have much direct interaction with most of the forum mods. I have reported posts from time to time, but it is usually when a poster is being an ass for no reason.

As for practicing, I can't argue with the logic.

 

[badler]

Shut the fuck up Rogey. Nobody cares and nobody wants to hear it, especially here you fucking shitbrain.

In a little over a month we are going to be doing a panel for PAX East. The format doesn't need to be the exact same thing, but it should probably be similar. Is there anything, in particular, that you might want to see us show off? For the south panel we tried to show off some funny situations that people might find interesting.

I was thinking that we might try to show off a bit more C&C. Just let the crowd choose the options.

That would be very nice.

If you could set up some situation so we get to see some immediate short term C&C and later on another situation that would show long term or global C&C influenced by those first choices that would be great.
Even if its just a small example.

Maybe show an attack on the Stronghold? I dont think youve shown that yet.

And if possible, one small combat where the party is completely normal as would be in normal gameplay, and someone plays it tactically, slowly as needed. Its fine to see all the flashy options of high levels but we do want to see how tough the combat is in some sort of usual gameplay.
I dont think anyone would mind if it was a bit longer. Although of course, whoever does it can practice that same encounter so it doesnt take too long.

Those are pretty good ideas. Not sure how to show off the long term C&C since it would require a lot of setup, but I will give it some thought.

 

[Roguey]

You can do that, but keep in mind that people on this forum will find the PAX crowd's applause and cheering method of voting to be awfully boorish!

As long as no one shouts "rape her!" with accompanying uproarious laughter from the crowd, Obsidian will fare better than Bethesda.

(not that I didn't find that situation funny)

 

[badler]

As someone who has made a comment about your ability playing the game, I would like to clarify why I did it.
The last stream with Josh was preety good to get a better look of how combat looks, and even in this forum you can see a lot of people who have been very critical with the combat system say that it looked a lot better/less clusterfucky. Now, a panel and a stream are very different things, but having an overleveled party fighting enemies clearly below your level and spamming abilities without much though isn't particulary good to get a chance to evaluate a bit more the combat of PoE. In fact I was a bit bored watching the combat scenarios from the panel to be honest, and something similar happened to me when you made a stream with Jesse Cox, who obviously wasn't very good at the game, and it wasn't the greatest thing to watch him fight.

I don't really know how good playing the game you really are (nor I want to know) and playing for a crowd is a very different thing than playing alone, and the last thing I want is to judge people capabilities with something just by watching a simple video (and offend that person, you, in the process), but my point is that it would have been more interesting that if those combat scenarios you showed were played by someone more familiar with the system and without having your characters too overleveled for what you're showing.

I'm not too terribly worried about the comments. I realize that the play in the streams and panels is sub-par for people that are familiar with those style of games and I wasn't going to be field promoted to general because of my tactical prowess and situational awareness. I was more or less just letting folks know that that experience isn't a typical experience for players. That, and that I am not *completely* horrible at these games. I do want to inspire a little confidence in the dev team.

I think it might be a good idea to show off a more typical experience in the next panel, like you had suggested.

 

[Roguey]

I've seen nothing but praise regarding the skeleton army, so that was a good thing to demonstrate. Memory limitations kinda make that an impossibility on console RPGs so it's a good reminder of what you can do with a PC exclusive, even on Unity.

 

[hiver]

Those are pretty good ideas. Not sure how to show off the long term C&C since it would require a lot of setup, but I will give it some thought.

Well, it doesnt have to be anything too huge or spoilery.

Maybe you can use the stronghold for it and so do two or three birds with one stone? Without spoiling any bigger quest.
Especially if the stronghold can get destroyed.

 

[Ellef]

I know these panel things have to be showy and combat oriented, but anything that can be shown that separates this from your average modern rpg would be good.

 

[Azeot]

The skeleton army was very cool and unexpected. It shows that there are both fun and tactical flexibility in the game, and summons are once again useful.

Hiver's suggestion is also good. Just stay cool and show the game at it's best, which is not necessarily flashy lights and cool explosions. Don't get me wrong, they are pretty good, but there are also a crapton of games out there with even more lights and bigger explosions, so it doesn't really make sense to insist much on that point.

 

[Shevek]

In a little over a month we are going to be doing a panel for PAX East. The format doesn't need to be the exact same thing, but it should probably be similar. Is there anything, in particular, that you might want to see us show off? For the south panel we tried to show off some funny situations that people might find interesting.

I was thinking that we might try to show off a bit more C&C. Just let the crowd choose the options.

I think that the BB doesn't have the strongest encounter design for non-trash fights (since it was one of the first areas you guys worked on) and that may be giving folks an unduly negative view of the game and its mechanics (my favorite fight is at the end of the Skaen temple; the Le A Rhemen end fight doesn't feel as strong). I do think you have a good system but you should do more to showcase that (since it seems many folks place heavy emphasis on the strength of relatively few set piece encounters). To counter some of this, I would strongly suggest showing off a particularly well designed encounter and narrating/showing how one can approach it with a variety of tactics. In other words, showcase both some of the better encounter design in PoE and help explain how PoE's system allows for varied approaches within such an encounter. Maybe go through a single encounter with two very different (non-gimmicky) parties. Show the engagement system and how to effectively use it, or deal with it, in combat. Showcase spell use for assorted classes and how they alter outcomes in a well made encounters.

Some C&C dialogue stuff would be cool too. I don't think you guys are doing enough to promote how well you are implementing that.

 

[Sensuki]

Lle A Rhemen wasn't part of the Vertical Slice, FYI. It was designed by Constant Gaw, who was only on the project for a month? somewhere around Jan 2014. It's also quite obvious visually - as it's art style is far more 'developed' and looks like Cilant Lis (the prologue dungeon) which we know was done during the latter stages of production.

The encounters in the Dyrford Crossing and Ogre Cave have also been modified quite a few times over the course of the beta, but I don't think they've touched the Dyrford Ruins much at all. I can't get a good frame rate in that area, so I just don't go down there ... if I was able to, you woulda probably seen a "the encounters in this area need improvement" thread on the backer beta forums long ago

Matt Perez appears to be overseeing all of the BB areas now.

 

[Shevek]

I noticed the ogre cave has been messed with a bit (how they moved the crystal eaters out of it and added patrolling spiders, etc). Medreth still seems like a push over and the humanoids in the trash fights of the Skaen temple feel like they need to use more abilities. I hope they take a final pass over all the BB areas (including Rhemen - specifically the end fight) prior to releasing the last BB to us.

 

[Sensuki]

I'm with you there. The art team also needs to do another pass on those areas as well - there's a few visual glitches in the Dyrford Village and there's still a few navmesh issues in the Dyrford Crossing as well.

Several of them also need lighting and ambient map tweaks.

 

[Hormalakh]

In a little over a month we are going to be doing a panel for PAX East. The format doesn't need to be the exact same thing, but it should probably be similar. Is there anything, in particular, that you might want to see us show off? For the south panel we tried to show off some funny situations that people might find interesting.

I was thinking that we might try to show off a bit more C&C. Just let the crowd choose the options.

Thanks for asking. Here are some general ideas as well as specific ideas that you guys could consider:

First off you guys should be trying to aim your audience to be new players who have never even heard of PoE. The rest of us, we'll eat up anything you show us and even a few new screens would be nice, but it's only two months away. Most of us (backers) have been waiting at least two years if not decades. So with that in mind, you should be trying to pull in new customers.

1- What makes Pillars similar to the IE games?
a: Show off some of your beautiful artwork. Show the "valley of hector," you can show perhaps a quick powerpoint slide of how you built a map (with each layer) and then show that very map as it works in game. That (the beautiful artwork) is a big draw for the players.
b: show off some real-time tactical combat.
c: show off some dialogue with C+C.

2- While showing these positive aspects also try to address the obvious questions: why "2D" when so many think of it as "old graphics". Show the dynamic maps and how you guys can actually change how the map plays. Show parts of the game that show how you've integrated "old technology" with new ideas and new inspirations.

3- One of the things you guys failed to do was to help direct the viewers as to what to look at during your presentation of the game. There is a lot going on and even being able to zoom into a particular aspect would be nice so that the crowd can follow you. It's totally OK to pause the game and tell them what's going on.

4- Show the "features of this game" that distinguish it from the old IE games.
a: crafting
b: the stronghold
c: sequences with the artwork
d: difficulty as it relates to monster composition instead of monster "health bloat"
e: The totally new RPG mechanic and system. (Show players the character creation screen).
f: Specific mechanics of the different classes. Talk about how chanters work (show the chanter GUI for saving chants), monks, etc.

Even showing these things that most of the backers know about (mechanics, etc) in new maps and new locations we haven't seen will allow both newcomers to get the info they need and the old-guard backers to see new stuff as well.

 

[Sensuki]

Well if they're doing a slide, if they wanted to show off what's so good about their graphics they should take a raw render and then show a screenshot of what the area looks like with the lighting/color grade and paintover pass to illustrate the difference.

Nice to see you posting here a bit more too badler

 

[Lord Carlos Wafflebum]

The PAX thread is why I now spend more time reading the Codex than the OE forums

 

[aeonsim]

In a little over a month we are going to be doing a panel for PAX East. The format doesn't need to be the exact same thing, but it should probably be similar. Is there anything, in particular, that you might want to see us show off? For the south panel we tried to show off some funny situations that people might find interesting.

I was thinking that we might try to show off a bit more C&C. Just let the crowd choose the options.

If you show some more combat it'd be interesting to see some one stacking up a pile of status effects and exploiting them, ie Hobble and blind, with a priest debuf and then wipe with AoE.
Or showing an enemy who's pretty hard to hurt until it's Stunned, Stuck or Paralysed and how the rest of the party can rip it to shreds after all. Not entirely sure how easy to show that'd be but it'd be nice to demonstrate that the secondary effects on spells and debuffs are pretty effective.

 

[ushas]

In a little over a month we are going to be doing a panel for PAX East. The format doesn't need to be the exact same thing, but it should probably be similar. Is there anything, in particular, that you might want to see us show off? For the south panel we tried to show off some funny situations that people might find interesting.

I was thinking that we might try to show off a bit more C&C. Just let the crowd choose the options.

Where it's possible, I would try to convince people that they are not buying your game because they think they want it (eg. as it contains flashy animations, as many other enjoyable games; or just due to an inspiration in IE, etc.), but because they think they need it. As others told you in better ways, it's probably good when you can pinpoint that how you choose and execute PoE's main components is the reason why the game will be fun and distinguishable among others --> spread it as a trend --> and offer a product which fulfill the corresponding need.

I guess the main components may be something like ~ a party-based rpg with a tactical rtwp combat and a play style freedom to explore a strange new world from a beautiful isometric viewpoint?...

Please don't take it as a criticism that there is something wrong. I just wanted to voice a support for the sentiment.


As for the panel, codexers already gave a great tips. I would try to add some, if it helps (sorry for repeating):

-- The C&C in game: A great idea. Maybe, if it's too long to play during a presentation -> create several future saves in advance, one for each option the audience may choose? Then load the appropriate one and show the outcome...

-- Isometric view: show another beautiful and different areas in game (even from BB?), tell people to take a look.
I would definitely dismiss any indications of an old or a low budget decision. It can be pretty much presentable as a strong point of the game and an improvement even over 3D for the type of experience you are creating...

-- Scripted interactions (maybe during the C&C?): Another one with some skill checks?
I may speak only for myself, but I think it's a wonderful feature, providing adventure book-like experience eliciting readers imagination. No animation work can match that.

-- Conversation options: for example, show that if you pass some skill/attribute check, it doesn't mean automatic success...

-- overcome some interesting and original creature in the PoE world, show the correspond bestiary page with some filled info and add a lore commentary about it...

-- another crazy/interesting party setup to do something unusual. Thumbs up for the skeleton army!
My favourite would be, if you can show a heavy stealth party passing though enemies unspotted and reaching wanted destination/quest without a fight...

-- Showing different approaches to combat: Maybe something more tactical with a pause and a little more inside comments this time, as has been already said?

Likewise, you can show two differently build up parties on two difficulties. Something like:

low-maintenance party (passive ab. and chants/auras?) turnoff hud, expert mode on easy;
X
party with a lot active members using pause on hard/pod...

I would even play them in the same area. The change of difficulty changes a type of available enemies, doesn't it?
But this is probably not good for a live presentation...

 

[badler]

These are great suggestions. I am making a list of them to bring up in the brainstorming meeting in a couple of weeks.

The real challenge is balancing some of the slower elements (like strategic combat and conversations) with some of flash. I think that scripted interactions are a great way to do that, but I will need to find one that doesn't have story implications. I also like the idea of showcasing one of the companions. That might be something that we can do for one of the earlier companions.