Holder of shadows - Thief 2: The Metal Age vs Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory

[Child of Malkav]

Appealing to your arcane ken, estimated participants I invite you to immortalize by vote which of these games holds the title for the best stealth game, taking into proper consideration all the minute details, gameplay, mechanics and features that these 2 games offer.
Without further ado, cast your vote.

 

[Infinitron]

Summoning Silva

 

[DalekFlay]

Thief 2, but they're both great games. Thief wins because of a cooler setting and more PC focused gameplay.

 

[cretin]

SCCT by a cunt hair. Thief 2 has more interesting level design

 

[Gilius Thunderhead]

Chaos Theory is perfect for a Splinter Cell game. It's far more polished than the previous titles where sometimes I would get spotted for apparently no reason. Level design is great, but still more restricted than classic Thief. Some levels gave me the impression of being Thief lite, which otherwise would be a compliment.

First person is superior to third person for stealth, that's just how it is.

The setting, atmosphere and protagonist are also cooler in Thief TMA, not to speak of TDP.

 

[Carrion]

Chaos Theory is pretty good and enjoyable. Thief 2, along with the first one, is not only the definitive stealth game but one of the greatest games of all time, a master class in game design in more ways than one. Gameplay, level design, art style, sound design, writing... and it's in first person, which is how it should be.

 

[J_C]

Thief 2 wins with a hair, because of the amazing atmosphere and art design. Gameplay wise both of them fantastic in their own style.

 

[Child of Malkav]

Hardly surprising results, but understandable.
I voted for CT but I'm not entirely convinced.
Here's something to think about:
Thief:
- has swimming
- huge levels, multiple entry points
- rope arrows, vertical exploration
- unrivaled sound propagation system
- is an immersive sim with all the options and depth that comes from this designation
- lots of actually hidden areas and secrets which to this day I keep discovering
- various surfaces producing their own noise levels

CT:
- sound meter and sound masking
- options when opening doors: open normally, open quietly (which also exists in Gloomwood), bash open which causes a lot of noise and can KO an enemy on the other side, pick the lock, break the lock which causes noise and alerts enemies
- alarm levels, at level 4 it causes enemies to patrol in pairs and fortify their positions which poses problems for navigating the environment
- enemies notice opened doors, hacked keypads, broken locks etc.
- there are more security systems and varieties like lasers, wall mines, turrets, cameras and some have infrared or night vision capability, drones (in one mission), motion detector lights (in one mission)
- enemy interrogations etc.

I think that Thief 2 and CT have equal and corresponding mechanics up until a point, the rest are differences like the ones I mentioned above that give advantages to their respective series.

 

[forumvisitor#451]

You forgot to mention that AI in CT notices your reflection in mirrors which is pretty cool too. Given release date it is also more technologically advanced and it is great how much stuff AI can actually do while in Thief it can feel kind of simplistic and binary at times. But AI does not make the whole game.

Spoiler

Side note - I am amazed by development of AI in stealth games - In Thief 3 while being spotted behing crate it was first time I heard AI say "What's over there behind that crate?" AI in Dishonored 2 reacts to lot of kind of stimuli which makes gaming pretty immersive when game reacts to what you do. Also in Hitman (2016) and 2 AI is amazingly detailed and reacts to what you wear, where you are and what you do even what guns you use.

To the topic - While CT is cool, polished, looks and plays amazingly well I have to go with Thief 2. Aside from things already mentioned - CT feels like a game, Thief 2 is art. It makes me feel. It has heart and therefore will always be superior.

 

[Child of Malkav]

Yeah, forgot about the AI and mirrors. Thanks for mentioning it.
Good AI was also in MGSVTPP.
But that's the thing, it differs. The one in MGSVTPP was fit for outside, open world environment, didn't notice small things or disturbances in their immediate vicinity.
The one in CT, Thief 3 and others is fit for inside or smaller levels.
And yeah, the AI in Thief 3 was much improved over T1 and 2. While in the first 2 games the enemies would catch glimpses of you or gear something, they would still just say one if their barks and continue on. Unlesss you created a big disturbance enough to put them in an alert or search state. In Thief 3 not only they react to every state of the light gem but also to sound and proximity and level to both of them. And they also actually investigate them, but not always, depending on the disturbance. For example, one guard can whistle, you make a sound, not a loud one and you notice that he stops whistling and listening instead. And then he goes back to a relaxed state he didn't detect anything else.
Really cool. Or you can tell how much you've alerted them just by the movement of their heads. A lot of feedback and nuance.

 

[Silva]

My heart says Chaos Theory, but my reason says Metal Age, due to the later sprawling and open-ended levels.

I think Phantom Pain should enter the conversation of best stealth games with the two above (plus Hitman). It's unique open-world stealth is really good. A pity it comes with a shitty game attached.

 

[carisaweed]

CT. But both Thief 2's are really good. Why not both

 

[Child of Malkav]

My heart says Chaos Theory, but my reason says Metal Age, due to the later sprawling and open-ended levels.

I think Phantom Pain should enter the conversation of best stealth games with the two above (plus Hitman). It's unique open-world stealth is really good. A pity it comes with a shitty game attached.

While I liked MGSVTPP, I wouldn't call it a stealth game. Combat is an available and easier option, there's no feedback for how visible you are or how much sound you're making, no different surfaces with their own noise levels (walking on sand is the same as walking on metal) etc.
Hitman is a different form of stealth, a social stealth, with its disguise mechanics and it's kinda the only one that does it and does it well.
I chose for this thread Thief and Splinter Cell because they share the same form of stealth based on light and shadow system.
I guess I should have included Mark of the Ninja as well as it does innovate in some areas, particularly the costumes with their own advantages and disadvantages and transparency if the mechanics.

 

[DalekFlay]

Hitman is a different form of stealth, a social stealth, with its disguise mechanics and it's kinda the only one that does it and does it well.

The suit only challenges make Hitman more of a pure stealth game, though it usually dramatically limits your route options.

 

[octavius]

Thief 2 wins by default by not being 3rd person view.

And if Splinter Cell 3 Chaos Theory is anything like the first game in the series, it's extremely linear too, which again makes Thief 2 win by default.

 

[Child of Malkav]

Hitman is a different form of stealth, a social stealth, with its disguise mechanics and it's kinda the only one that does it and does it well.

The suit only challenges make Hitman more of a pure stealth game, though it usually dramatically limits your route options.

Yeah it does, except without all the advantages and mechanics of other stealth games. It turns into Far Cry level of stealth, based on occlusion and bush hiding.

 

[Child of Malkav]

Thief 2 wins by default by not being 3rd person view.

And if Splinter Cell 3 Chaos Theory is anything like the first game in the series, it's extremely linear too, which again makes Thief 2 win by default.

CT is a massive improvement over the first 2 games. It is somewhat linear but you usually have quite a few paths open to you all throughout. No loading screens or independent, closed off areas in between like Blacklist in case you're wondering about that.
On a level design category, Thief 2 wins, no contest. The maps are also huge in Thief as well.
But I was thinking of a comparison based more on mechanics and gameplay features.

 

[Curratum]

Why even run a contest when one of the games is 3rd person view and loses automatically to anything comparably good that's in first person?

 

[Child of Malkav]

Why even run a contest when one of the games is 3rd person view and loses automatically to anything comparably good that's in first person?

Perspective is more important than mechanics and gameplay features?

 

[Curratum]

Why even run a contest when one of the games is 3rd person view and loses automatically to anything comparably good that's in first person?

Perspective is more important than mechanics and gameplay features?

That's why I said "anything comparably good". If two things are in the same ballpark in terms of quality, 3rd person loses automatically.

 

[Child of Malkav]

Why even run a contest when one of the games is 3rd person view and loses automatically to anything comparably good that's in first person?

Perspective is more important than mechanics and gameplay features?

That's why I said "anything comparably good". If two things are in the same ballpark in terms of quality, 3rd person loses automatically.

I see. I also prefer first person perspective in general but that isn't a deciding factor in any way. At least for me. If the game is good, then it's good no matter the POV.

 

[Turtle-Zone 3000]

Thief beats it out by level design.

 

[Wirdschowerdn]

Why not compare it with the best SC in the series, SC1? Chaos Theory was already popamole decline.

 

[Child of Malkav]

Why not compare it with the best SC in the series, SC1? Chaos Theory was already popamole decline.

How exactly was it decline?

 

[Wirdschowerdn]

Why not compare it with the best SC in the series, SC1? Chaos Theory was already popamole decline.

How exactly was it decline?

For starters, I could never bother to finish it. Something about the boring story and inferior level design I suppose.