Holder of shadows - Thief 2: The Metal Age vs Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory

[Silva]

While I liked MGSVTPP, I wouldn't call it a stealth game. Combat is an available and easier option, there's no feedback for how visible you are or how much sound you're making, no different surfaces with their own noise levels (walking on sand is the same as walking on metal) etc.

In PP combat is an option, not the focus of the design as stealth is. And while it has no lighting based mechanics, it has others like camouflage, enemy communication (and coordination) between camps etc, that fit it's open world premise better.

It's all a matter of focus. Each game has theirs. And even if I agree that Chaos Theory and Metal Age have more similar foci, all them are about stealth.


P.S: And really, by the criteria "combat is easier option" than all these games are out of the equation because easier is relative and there's always some Chink on YT with pure combat playthrough making it look easy.

 

[Wirdschowerdn]

Guise, you're all getting too worked up about muh opinion.

 

[Silva]

Why not compare it with the best SC in the series, SC1? Chaos Theory was already popamole decline.

Regardless of what you think of the plots, Chaos Theory has better and more open-ended level design, while SC1 is almost entirely linear.

Panama Bank in Chaos Theory is a great example of this. You can navigate the level and follow objectives as you see fit, and for each objective there are at least a couple ways to approach. There's nothing like it in SC1.

 

[Wirdschowerdn]

Why not compare it with the best SC in the series, SC1? Chaos Theory was already popamole decline.

Regardless of what you think of the plots, Chaos Theory has better and more open-ended level design, while SC1 is almost entirely linear.

Panama Bank in Chaos Theory is a great example of this. You can navigate the level and follow objectives as you see fit, and for each objective there are at least a couple ways to approach. There's nothing like it in SC1.

And that's exactly why I liked SC1 more. Linear, well crafted levels. If I wanted your purported approach, I believe the Hitman games are better for that.

 

[Child of Malkav]

While I liked MGSVTPP, I wouldn't call it a stealth game. Combat is an available and easier option, there's no feedback for how visible you are or how much sound you're making, no different surfaces with their own noise levels (walking on sand is the same as walking on metal) etc.

In PP combat is an option, not the focus of the design as stealth is. And while it has no lighting based mechanics, it has others like camouflage, enemy communication (and coordination) between camps etc, that fit it's open world premise better.

It's all a matter of focus. Each game has theirs. And even if I agree that Chaos Theory and Metal Age have more similar foci, all them are about stealth.


P.S: And really, by the criteria "combat is easier option" than all these games are out of the equation because easier is relative and there's always some Chink on YT with pure combat playthrough making it look easy.

And the camouflage you speak of has no feedback whatsoever. It's all guesswork regarding how visible you are, what effect does time of day has, various camo patterns, proximity to enemies, stance etc. Yeah, there is an official guide or something that has values for each of these things but they are contested, they don't always add up, which means there are more factors at work. Read forums, watch YT videos of various tests they do in game, it's like nobody knows. Previous MGS games had a camo index. Why doesn't this one? It seems like devs who make make stealth games fail to understand one simple thing: information is crucial to this genre. HUDless design and cinematic feeling needs to go to one place: to hell.

 

[Silva]

Child of Malkav , perhaps they went for a more organic approach, not unlike KoDP where certain things are purposefully hidden so players use their instincts and gut feelings?

Anyway that's besides the point. You said Phantom Pain/Ground Zeroes was not a stealth game. I argued that it is, only of a different kind than SC:CT and Thief. I think your point would be more valid if we were talking Dishonored series, which seems to me a more proper hybrid between action and stealth.

 

[Child of Malkav]

Child of Malkav , perhaps they went for a more organic approach, not unlike KoDP where certain things are purposefully hidden so players use their instincts and gut feelings?

Anyway that's besides the point. You said Phantom Pain/Ground Zeroes was not a stealth game. I argued that it is, only of a different kind than SC:CT and Thief. I think your point would be more valid if we were talking Dishonored series, which seems to me a more proper hybrid between action and stealth.

Instead of using light and shadow it uses camouflage. Kinda the same. They're both granular and not binary. The advantage of camo is that it can be used during the night and during the day which is cool but again, it needs to show the thing, the indicator, the light meter whatever you want to call it. Some kind of feedback. One of the reasons Mark of the Ninja was so good was the transparency of its mechanics.
MGS V, in my opinion, belongs in the same category as all the other games where stealth is an option not a focus. FC, AC, Ghost Recon, WD, etc. The AI in it is good for an open world game. One of the principles in stealth games is that the protagonist is powerless, weak, his or her only advantages being intelligence, wits, patience, observing, planning etc. Is the protagonist powerless in MGS? Not really. MGS can be played as a stealth game, true, it definitely has some mechanics for it, nowhere as deep as actual stealth games and with no feedback you're just lucking from spot to spot. If Kojima wanted to go for that organic feel, well he should be informed that in game camouflage doesn't really work like real world camo and that the computers of today aren't anywhere close to properly and realistically simulate camo patterns on various terrain surfaces and that this is an ongoing research with some impressive results, like the multispectral camouflage nets.
Dishonored, Prey 2017, Dark Messiah, DX1 are immersive sims first and hybrids second. Thief is the only imsim that's also a stealth game. Gloomwood apparently will be one as well. Hopefully.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

This is one is tricky.
If it were T1 vs CT I would say CT, but being T2 we're talking about...


CT has:
+++can be ghosted
+++AI that is ligthyears ahead of any stealth game (bar maybe MGS3 and MGS5)
++good level design - there's not as many open maps as there is in the Thief series, but still a good thing about linearity is that it gives the devs more power over the player and even the most linear CT levels are very well constructed
++the ligth and sound mechanics are better developed
+Sam has a wide array of non-combat actions, from advanced athletics to various ways of interacting with the game world
+cool multiplayer modes
+very good presentation for it's time
-not that I don't like the setting, in fact I think that there's barely no "mature" spy games, but CT athmosphere and story aren't all that engaging despite the genre's potential
-no custom map tools
--Sam has enough firepower and combat prowess to make most confrontations a non-threat


T2 has:
+++can be ghosted
+++excellent level design
++Garret is a properly weak stealth charact but also pretty versatile to play
++pretty cool setting and the plot besides interesting expands nicely with the previous game
++mod support and hundreds of great fan made maps
+very good presentation for it's time
--the AI is lacking in awareness


Honestly both games are on the same footing, and both are "must plays" for any stealth fan.
But if was forced to choose one, I would say T2 has sigthly less bad things and it's more replayable (mainly because of the quantity of custom maps).

 

[DalekFlay]

And that's exactly why I liked SC1 more. Linear, well crafted levels. If I wanted your purported approach, I believe the Hitman games are better for that.

I'm not a fan of huge open worlds that don't feel crafted or interesting to explore at all, but I do think linear "levels" should be wider than a corridor and have multiple avenues to accomplish tasks in. Doom, not Call of Duty. Bioshock, not Bioshock Infinite. Chaos Theory, not Splinter Cell 1. Chaos Theory is still very much a linear game but just with a wider and more open pathway.

 

[†††]

And that's exactly why I liked SC1 more. Linear, well crafted levels.

I hope you're not trying to imply that CT doesn't feature well crafted levels.

 

[Wirdschowerdn]

SC 1> CT

SC 1> CT

SC 1> CT

C'mon guise keep getting riled up over this nonsense! Quote me! Shit-tag me! Keep dragging me inside here!!!1

 

[Nifft Batuff]

And while it has no lighting based mechanics

I think it has. The frequency how enemies spot you depends on the lighting condition and weather, and also on what you are wearing relatively to what kind of objects are near to you (grass, trees, rocks, concrete walls, etc.)

 

[Silva]

Yeah I know it has. I meant in a gradative form like in Thief/SC.

Anyway, Phantom Pain is among the biggest frustrations ever for me. I love love love it's gameplay, but can't stand the silly story and sci-fi stuff. And that's coming from a sci-fi junky. Those giant robot and monster squad stuff sound super silly to me, like a crap Michael Bay movie.

Imagine if PP was a splinter cell game with Sam in place of snake, serious realistic military stuff, and no cutscene at all.

 

[Silva]

Heads up: Sam Fisher is the new operator in Rainbow 6 Siege. Thought you guys would like to know.

 

[Child of Malkav]

And is getting a VR game. Yeah, that happened.

 

[Child of Malkav]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...sins-creed-splinter-cell-vr-game-announcement

https://www.google.com/amp/s/techcr...d-and-splinter-cell-vr-titles-for-oculus/amp/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ig...assins-creed-vr-oculus-ubisoft-facebook?amp=1

 

[†††]

There's also a Netflix anime series of SC in the works. Everything but a real SC game. It's like they love to give fans the middle finger...

 

[Silva]

There's also a Netflix anime series of SC in the works. Everything but a real SC game. It's like they love to give fans the middle finger...

But what should a new SC game be like? Another wide corridor stealth? I don't know but if I were Ubi I would try to improve the formula somehow.

I think you can't think about a new SC without looking at Phantom Pain. The base management and roster, the wide open map with emergent alert states, etc. these things raised the level on such a way that a "new" SC in the same mold as old ones but with shiny GFX would honestly be a waste. They MUST improve the formula for the series to be relevant.

 

[DalekFlay]

But what should a new SC game be like? Another wide corridor stealth? I don't know but if I were Ubi I would try to improve the formula somehow.

There's zero chance they make a traditional one again IMO. I thought Blacklist was actually pretty solid, but it didn't sell great and Ubi have only gotten further away from that kind of game since then. It's not a mystery why they haven't done anything with it since.

Best chance for a revival is the spies versus mercs thing coming back in a Rainbow Six Siege style game, IMO. Not that I want that to be true.

 

[Silva]

But what should a new SC game be like? Another wide corridor stealth? I don't know but if I were Ubi I would try to improve the formula somehow.

There's zero chance they make a traditional one again IMO. I thought Blacklist was actually pretty solid, but it didn't sell great and Ubi have only gotten further away from that kind of game since then. It's not a mystery why they haven't done anything with it since.

Best chance for a revival is the spies versus mercs thing coming back in a Rainbow Six Siege style game, IMO. Not that I want that to be true.

I would like to see the boldness that Phantom Pain showed applied to SC. Give Fisher a roster of recruits wirh different abilities to train, have dynamic missions to choose from with multiple/optional objectives. Open up the game.

 

[Thal]

I've never played a Splinter Cell game, but I still know it's Thief 2.

 

[commie]

Poll is wrong...I would put Thief 1 there for the variety, strangeness and unsettling horror. Thief 2 while arguably mechanically smoother is more restricted with almost everything being pure B&E in cities. I know the fans wanted more of this in original Thief(that's why we had Thief Gold that added 3 more locations that in some ways broke the pacing), but T2 went too far. It's awesome, but there's a lot of repetition and obvious need to meet deadlines with Casing the Joint and Masks being basically the same level split to make 2.

Include T1 and I would vote that, but failing the option, T2 is still miles above SC, even though I think CT is also a damn fine game in itself.

 

[Silva]

Nah, Thief 1 with those zombies and fantasy shit was so silly I couldn't get far.

Deadly Shadows at least made the horror aspects right, more unsettling than overt as it should be. That orphanage alone is scarier than anything in Thief 1.

 

[commie]

Nah, Thief 1 with those zombies and fantasy shit was so silly I couldn't get far.

Deadly Shadows at least made the horror aspects right, more unsettling than overt as it should be. That orphanage alone is scarier than anything in Thief 1.

Nah....the whole thing about Thief was Pagans vs Builders, the tech v nature paradigm. In T2 it was neutered to ONE Hammer Haunt. Orphanage was good, but T3 did so many other things shitty that it pales in comparison to T1 and T2 even. Orphanage was also pretty gimmicky, and still in the real world in a way. T1's locations really made it feel like the City was the oasis of civilization in a strange and hostile world, where if you go outside its boundaries, you really are in a creepy, alien world. Orphanage also is nothing compared to the 'thing' chasing you when you meet Viktoria in the woods with all the willo the wisps, monkey men, strange sights etc. or the Bonehoard with the pipe music or the mines with that horrid sucking zombie sound when you get close and wake them before the mad dash for the holy water. Orphanage was great and better than most others at what it did, but what it did was standard ghost fare that is in many other franchises. T1 went all out weird and it was much more Lovecraftian in a way without copying that at all...I mean that idea of the 'totally alien unknowable' which very few other games have managed to do.


Also if you couldn't get far (meaning the fourth mission in T1), then we have nothing further to discuss regarding your taste in games and knowledge of them. I bid you a good day Sir!

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

Was CT the one with that Hunter vs. Stalker multiplayer mode? Because that shit was addictive.

But overall I give it to Thief 1/Thief 2 as the best example of stealth games. Splinter Cell was good but it never hit me the same way that Thief 1/2 did with its stealth mechanics and atmosphere, it didn't have the same creativity of Hitman games and it lacked the charisma MGS games had. Splinter Cell never quite stood out enough to be anything special to me.