Why Thief is better than Deus Ex

[Twinfalls]

From an interview with the Ebony God himself:

”Warren and I have this debate all the time. Whether it’s better to take the Deus Ex approach to very shallowly include a lot of possibilities, and hope that as years go by you’ll learn to increase those experience’s fidelity. Whereas I believe it’s better to start with a complete system, and then branching out adding more systems with more interactions. Our job should be less to give them a a little piece of the plot, and a lot more about whether the player has a lot more expression to control and whether they’ll remember what /they/ did rather than remembering what /we/ did.”

“If you look to Underworld to Shock to Thief, I think you can see a progression of taking out everything that kept you from diving into the world. That’s the reason why the CD version of Shock was so much better than the floppy disk version. We desperately tried to stop them releasing the floppy disk version, as - well – the whole reason we overlaid the automap, the whole full screen, the augmentations was because we wanted you to play it full screen, not to stop and read but be in the world all the time. With Thief it went even further. We really tried to narrow down the player’s ability, but within that narrow scope to give them complete control. I can see the progression that way. In a lot of ways, with Deus Ex and the stuff Warren’s doing, is the reverse of that. Okay – you guys took all that lot out. We’re going to go back to the Kitchen Sink approach and go for broad but shallow game as opposed to a deep and narrow game.

link (warning: wanker's blog alert)

There's something about Daggerfall which suggests to me that if you expand the 'shallow' possibilities sufficiently, and especially the playing space exponentially, you can overcome that hurdle that many-shallow-options gameplay presents.

 

[Major_Boobage]

Blasphemy!

 

[Carlos' Bitch1]

While I can understand why they were happy with their simplification process, I hardly agree with the strategic thought behind it.

In fact, it makes me think of what is happening to games today. More aspects are taken out than added. So the conversation in Underworld was clunky? Why not improve it then? Why must it be deleted unless, and I suspect this is the real reason, it saves the developer both time and money. After this, they can spin their reasons out as to why less is more.

As for Deus Ex being inferior to Thief, I disagree. Deus Ex had many more options to use when solving problems of various natures, whether it be getting past security systems, avoiding guards, or even many different ways of defeating them. Thief was much more one dimensional and did not keep me enthralled to nearly the same level.

 

[Twinfalls]

Well there's a subtle but crucial difference in what he's saying. It's not simplification per se. It's increasing scope only when a system is perfected or as good as you can get it. So you do stealth, but do it completely, deeply, and get it right. Only then do you add something else, and do that to the same standard, and so on and so forth. Pretty obvious stuff I guess, but the approach paid deep fucking dividends with Thief.

 

[baronjohn]

Funny, neither Spector nor Church have made a half-decent decent game in this millennium.

 

[ghostdog]

Thief vs Deus Ex , which is better and why

Discuss !!!

 

[racofer]

 

[Wyrmlord]

I really can not believe how the people behind Deus Ex take their very own game for granted.

Whether it was intentional or not, whether it turned out to be a different game from what they had started out in mind - they still don't realize that what they made was one of the most intelligent and interesting games ever made, in its final form.

Yes, it was probably a very kitchen sink game, i.e. a game that throws all sorts of things possible into it. If I have my terminology correct, kitchen sink games are games that try to have everything, including actual usable kitchen sinks.

But dammit, they pulled it off. Don't they get it? It was cool to have a game where you both conduct actual missions on the field and then actually meet up with your superiors to report back to them personally. It was cool that they gave you an appraisal of your work based exactly on how you did it. It was cool that if you pissed a guy off, he wouldn't forget it, even much later in the game. It was cool that you not only infiltrated enemy bases, but also went around talking to civilians to get information.

The kitchen sink approach worked. A game where you can go to a unisex toilet and be rebuked by the ladies for it is a game that creates memories.

 

[Gragt]

The kitchen sink approach worked. A game where you can go to a unisex toilet and be rebuked by the ladies for it is a game that creates memories.

That kind of stuff is more like attention to details, which is something not many devs invest time in.

 

[Wyrmlord]

Nor do they even need to, but they sure did it anyway in Deus Ex, and it never ceased to surprise the player how much of an extra layer there was to everything.

The Sandra Renton thing for example - damn, was it surprising to see her in the petrol station mission.

 

[Sir_Brennus]

Deus Ex > System Shock 2 > System Shock 1 > Thief 2 > Thief 1

Nuff said.

 

[Raapys]

Nah.

Thief 1 > Deus Ex > SS 2 > Thief 2 > SS1

 

[Wyrmlord]

Deus Ex > System Shock 2 > System Shock 1 > Thief 2 > Thief 1

Nuff said.

And where does Ultima Underworld come in there?

 

[Jasede]

Deus Ex > System Shock 2 > System Shock 1 > Thief 2 > Thief 1

Nuff said.

Wow, kill yourself.

It's very, very hard not to love the Thief games. They practically punch you in the face with their greatness. To even attempt to rate a Looking Glass game above another fantastic LG game is sheer arrogance, but to put even one of them as the "worst", that is infamy beyond measure. And no mention of Terra Nova or Ultima Underworld, this is the work of the devil.


Nay, you do not enjoy good games. I say unto thee, leave while there is still time afore your taint blackens our souls.

 

[Fat Dragon]

Deus Ex > System Shock 2 > System Shock 1 > Thief 2 > Thief 1

Nuff said.

Wow, kill yourself.

It's very, very hard not to love the Thief games. They practically punch you in the face with their greatness. To even attempt to rate a Looking Glass game above another fantastic LG game is sheer arrogance, but to put even one of them as the "worst", that is infamy beyond measure. And no mention of Terra Nova or Ultima Underworld, this is the work of the devil.


Nay, you do not enjoy good games. I say unto thee, leave while there is still time afore your taint blackens our souls.

:words of a wise man:

 

[DraQ]

Terra Nova

belongs to quite a different genre, whereas DX shares sneaker elements with Thief series and RPG enriched FPS elements with SS series.

It's awesome and has aged very gracefully in all aspects, including GFX, but it's not relevant to this thread, unless you're gunning for another comparison between narrow and deep, and broad yet shallow - TN and SS1 do share quite a few traits when it comes to general gameplay.

Also, TN fappers should proceed to the designated area.

 

[Gragt]

Nor do they even need to, but they sure did it anyway in Deus Ex, and it never ceased to surprise the player how much of an extra layer there was to everything.

The Sandra Renton thing for example - damn, was it surprising to see her in the petrol station mission.

My remark was to be taken as not many devs invest time in it and it's a shame because it adds another layer to the game. It's small little stuff like this that make a setting or a character believable or at the very least more enjoyable, while taken by itself it might mean insignificant and certainly has no impact on gameplay.

 

[Sir_Brennus]

Deus Ex > System Shock 2 > System Shock 1 > Thief 2 > Thief 1

Nuff said.

Wow, kill yourself.

It's very, very hard not to love the Thief games. They practically punch you in the face with their greatness. To even attempt to rate a Looking Glass game above another fantastic LG game is sheer arrogance, but to put even one of them as the "worst", that is infamy beyond measure. And no mention of Terra Nova or Ultima Underworld, this is the work of the devil.


Nay, you do not enjoy good games. I say unto thee, leave while there is still time afore your taint blackens our souls.

Never liked Thief 1. I think Thief 2 is more coherently realised anyway, but doesn't come close to DX or SS2 (which had its own share of problems).

Maybe I like the brutal force approach too much to give up on it.

BTW: UU1 good but aged badly, UU2 bad and aged even worse.

 

[Gnidrologist]

 

[Jasede]

Terra Nova

belongs to quite a different genre, whereas DX shares sneaker elements with Thief series and RPG enriched FPS elements with SS series.

It's awesome and has aged very gracefully in all aspects, including GFX, but it's not relevant to this thread, unless you're gunning for another comparison between narrow and deep, and broad yet shallow - TN and SS1 do share quite a few traits when it comes to general gameplay.

Also, TN fappers should proceed to the designated area.

Have you just turned deaf? I mean, in all seriousness, how can ANYONE claim Deus Ex and Thief are even remotely similar in genre? By all that is holy, I added TN because it's an LG game, not because it has anything in common with the others- just like Thief has nothing in common with Deus Ex or System Shock, except perhaps the engine and the perspective. It's like saying "this apple is a banana because both a fruit".

 

[denizsi]

There's something about Daggerfall which suggests to me that if you expand the 'shallow' possibilities sufficiently, and especially the playing space exponentially, you can overcome that hurdle that many-shallow-options gameplay presents.

I want to play Daggerfall, but experience something new in it :.(

 

[Darth Slaughter]

I feel thief is that kind of game that inovate in one aspect, that makes it close to perfection, but it sells little that everybody forgets it's great.

then, all later gamer promise to inovate in stealth, but none so far have reached thief state of art in that aspect.

And thief had more things that made it a great game.

Everygame FP game today wants to be like thief, claims it's better and don't even mention the thief games in it's interviews.

It's like every RPG nowadays wants to be ultima VII, but are worse. Every RPG nowadays want to put some features, claims it's inovating, and forget that U7 did it years ago. and better.

Deus Ex is great, but it's completely different from thief, and by the way, not a new kind of game, but more an "improvement" on games like UU, SS1 and SS2. Spiritual sucessor, if you may. The only likeness to thief is that you can have a Baton and it's possible to improve your stealth skills. But Garrett is the master thief.

Thief, although linear and level based, presented some new gameplay that they never managed to repeat again.

There was one thing in thief: Garrett sucked in combat, if caught, he was doomed. But when you play that game and use the shadows and stealth, man... you feel powerful. It's like playing a God mode without cheating.

Thief had better use of sound too.

 

[SCO]

Thief has fan missions. Thus thief wins * 10^3.

 

[Carlos' Bitch1]

Well there's a subtle but crucial difference in what he's saying. It's not simplification per se. It's increasing scope only when a system is perfected or as good as you can get it. So you do stealth, but do it completely, deeply, and get it right. Only then do you add something else, and do that to the same standard, and so on and so forth. Pretty obvious stuff I guess, but the approach paid deep fucking dividends with Thief.

Indeed, though that is my point entirely; They have not made any additions whatsoever! They have certainly been taking aspects away though, I will give them that much.

On top of this, anything that has been perfected has often been scrapped and replaced with something dumbed down. While I enjoy reading their theories, perhaps they could start putting them into practise, I don't know, perhaps within the next ten years? They have obviously been theorising for the past 10.

 

[Wyrmlord]

BTW: UU1 good but aged badly, UU2 bad and aged even worse.

I'd agree with all of that, but I don't think the first Ultima Underworld has aged too badly.

Its control scheme and interface just contradict the modern standard, although it is not difficult to pick up on it.