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Esoteric Ebb - Disco-like using 5e ruleset where you are cleric uncovering political conspiracy with goblin sidekick

Harthwain

Arcane
Joined
Dec 13, 2019
Messages
5,570
That's the scary part too. Since the goal is to simulate the 'experience' of TTRPG freedom, I actually have to implement every reasonable possible interaction with unique content. Just the choice to add Charm Person to the game adds an extra 50k words to write, at minimum. But that's the fun part, same as being able to pickpocket quest rewards, or 'solve' encounters. Creating that simulated sense of 'wow, I can do anything'.
:d1p:

I said it before, but I think Esoteric Ebb is shaping up to be THE best Disco Elysium inspired game out of all Disco Elysium copycats. I will be surprised if it doesn't become a big success (you just need more media exposure before the release happens. Consider giving your game to known YouTubers, like SplatterCat and the like).
 

OttoQuitmarck

Educated
Joined
Aug 1, 2023
Messages
436
That's the scary part too. Since the goal is to simulate the 'experience' of TTRPG freedom, I actually have to implement every reasonable possible interaction with unique content. Just the choice to add Charm Person to the game adds an extra 50k words to write, at minimum. But that's the fun part, same as being able to pickpocket quest rewards, or 'solve' encounters. Creating that simulated sense of 'wow, I can do anything'.
:d1p:

I said it before, but I think Esoteric Ebb is shaping up to be THE best Disco Elysium inspired game out of all Disco Elysium copycats. I will be surprised if it doesn't become a big success (you just need more media exposure before the release happens. Consider giving your game to known YouTubers, like SplatterCat and the like).
Yep. It seems like the only one that isn't being funded by art subsidies/made by failed art majors and is actually being made with SOVL.
 

cyborgboy95

News Cyborg
Joined
Aug 24, 2019
Messages
3,165
An Esoteric Campaign - Writing
Ebb has a lot of text in it.

Making a game like this constitutes an insane amount of writing. Of course, as anyone who's attempted to create an interactive story knows, adding choices, routes, or dynamic content means adding layers of complexity that exponentially increases work. You have to keep potential narrative states in mind as you write each scene. You have to understand and balance whatever systems mesh with the story. You have to convince the player that their 'choices matter'. All of this is difficult, tedious, annoying, and absolutely, completely worth it.

I love writing interactive stories. It's a constant blend (or struggle) of writing and design, especially in a game like Esoteric Ebb. The main reason why I even started working on Ebb back in the day was so I could actually do this weird, niche style of writing-design for a living. And more importantly, so I could actually improve as a writer and designer. When it comes to how I write on Ebb, I've got a sort-of philosophy - three sort-of rules, that help guide the general style.

AGENCY AS A PRIORITY
My definition of Agency is this: it's the feeling you get when you receive feedback on your choices. If there is no feedback, or if the feedback goes unnoticed, then there is no Agency. Additionally, you receive Negative Agency when that feedback is not what you expected - and Positive Agency if it is.

My goal in Ebb is to always maximize Agency by this definition. In the basic dialog design, that means having choices lead to outcomes clearly indicated in those choices, as well as always focusing on using exposition to put images and ideas in the player's head that explore those potential outcomes. In the long-term this also means having character creation/progression that leads to unique content clearly shown to the player as being available due to the choices made in those systems. That's a very wordy way to put it, but in general, this is nothing more than the DM leaning in an double checking to make sure you (and your character) is aware of how dangerous it is to mess with a demon lord at level 1. Or hinting clearly that the town guard might (or might not) be the kind to take bribes. Or even, in a session 0, explaining to the player that playing a Warlock involves potentially dealing with a chosen patron. This might seem obvious. But using this as a mantra when writing dialogs makes them so, so much better, at least for me!

0e17760d546ecbebcc5d1c43fab03a3e4c054bde.png

The Chimes make sure the player is always on the same page as The Cleric.

The argument against this kind of thinking is, on the other hand, the element of surprise. If the DM (or game designer) were to exposition each and every potential outcome in extreme detail, then that could kill the thrill of not knowing. Twists in the narrative wouldn't be possible. Etcetera. But I tend to disagree with that kind of thinking when it comes to interactivity - at least as a general rule. Breaking the rules is great, and can create incredible moments of shock and/or player disempowerment. But overall I find that giving the player expected feedback to their input as often as possible is just such a better way to consistently establish a feeling of actually being in control of the narrative. As long as the exposition itself isn't boring.

KEEP THE PLAYER ENGAGED

I have the attention span of a goldfish. And I'm betting some of you do too. This tends to be a problem when I'm trying to engage with a story that's primarily blocks of text. I always say that my biggest challenge in making Ebb is not having 'good writing', but rather just avoiding having the player skim. Skimming is death. Pure death. Especially in an interactive story where the player has to be constantly engaged in order to make informed choices (and thus tap into that previously mentioned juicy Agency). One of the ways I tackle this issue, is simply to chop up the story into pieces. This is common in a bunch of different video games, but the simple act of having the writing be delivered line by line, with a CONTINUE button in-between does add a lot to keeping the player's attention. Of course, this is nowhere enough, since I'm sure many of you have spam-clicked your ways through uninteresting game-stories at some point.

5058ce509652dfb652d23a13fcb122a6f67ac882.png

It's not about how many choices you get, but how often interesting choices appear.

So my second basic guideline to keep engagement, is just to have a fairly high Choice-to-Text ratio. If the game constantly confronts the player in a way that allows them to take a stand and/or actually express themselves in the world- i.e. if it's actually fun to read the text and actively interpret it to figure out which choice is the one you actually want to choose - then that's... fun. Engaging. It'll keep the player awake, hopefully. At least it works for me.

EVERYTHING IS REAL

This might seem a bit strange. Early on when working on EBBRPG, as the project was originally called, I decided on a pitch for the world and setting. The pitch was: what if you take the 5E ruleset, and treat it with complete realism? How would an economy function if third level spell slots were commonly available? How would laws be created with charming magics in mind? My previous post went on a bunch about this topic. But this isn't just contained to fantasy tropes. When writing Ebb (and really, when I run TTRPGs in general) I tend to run things with my personal flavor of absurd realism. The characters are real. I don't hang lanterns. The factions, and economies, and supply lines, and interpersonal conflicts are supposed to be as realistic as they possibly could be. The world is consistent and everything can be explained.

In that realism, that's where I find the funniest shit. At least, the type of shit I find funny.

892d1b1ce1798768aabf9c5303ffb37f726b9134.png

The Cleric is ridiculous. But he's way too real, believe me.

Ebb is a wacky adventure of The Cleric and his goblin sidekick. The Esoteric Coast is supposed to be a weird setting. But to me it's all real. And that's what keeps the story grounded, despite everything fantastical and esoterical going on. The characters are real people with wants and needs and messy complex thoughts. And applying that concept of a 'character' onto every demi-lich, plant, brick wall, and crab you come across - that's what makes Ebb so much fun to write. And design. Design-write.
-Christoffer Bodegård
 

Nikanuur

Arbiter
Patron
Joined
Mar 1, 2021
Messages
1,835
Location
Ngranek
I might come to regret using the term 'Disco-like'. Especially since I'm trying to establish what makes Ebb unique. But as you can see, I'm having some trouble, hah!
It started as a writing exercise to see if I could graft 5e onto DE's formula and find some comedy in the ridiculous incompatibility between the two systems. And sure, I might find it funny, but I gotta find a way to market it too.
Although a parodical game like this might have a tiny little bit higher chance to get noticed.
Yeah... I tried leaning into this with the colorful 'artstyle', but drawing isn't really my strong suit. So when it comes to the design I'll probably try to put more focus on the stuff that differentiates it. Which is, I guess, wacky 5e magic encounters, fantasy satire (leaning more towards PS:T), and the 'Questing Tree'. We'll see how well those turn out.
The UI problem is real though. If you look at my older videos, you can clearly see how the old UI was... an exact replica. Almost pixel perfect. On purpose, mind you, since it was just a little personal challenge to see if I could do it at that point. And any attempt I've made to move away from it has been difficult, since I'm essentially trying to improve upon their design. And I'm being serious: if anyone has any tips or opinions on how to change the UI to fit this more colorful wacky 5e fantasy satire, I would LOVE to hear it.
Also thanks for making the thread! I'm a long time lurker, so it was kind of surreal to see my dumb hobby game pop up here.
If drawing isn't your best suit, you're doing a bloody good job at it. I mean, If I was to say that drawing wasn't my best suit, I would have ended up with something like this:

1736154244674.png
 
Last edited:
Developer
Joined
Oct 25, 2018
Messages
25
Yeah... I tried leaning into this with the colorful 'artstyle', but drawing isn't really my strong suit.
If drawing isn't your best suit, you're doing a bloody good job at it. I mean, If I was to say that drawing wasn't my best suit, I would have ended up with something like this:

View attachment 59783
That's a lovely bunny

A lot has changed since 2022. Nowadays I'm working with a bunch of great artists to make all the art assets. Some more of the new artwork (and links to the collaborators) can be seen on the updated website.

terrific.png
terrific2.png


Slight difference.

So, sadly, my personal drawing abilities haven't improved too much over the years. On the other hand, it's allowed me to focus almost entirely on design, writing, programming, etc etc.
 

covr

Prophet
Patron
Joined
Sep 3, 2006
Messages
1,439
Location
Warszawa
I might come to regret using the term 'Disco-like'. Especially since I'm trying to establish what makes Ebb unique. But as you can see, I'm having some trouble, hah!
It started as a writing exercise to see if I could graft 5e onto DE's formula and find some comedy in the ridiculous incompatibility between the two systems. And sure, I might find it funny, but I gotta find a way to market it too.
Although a parodical game like this might have a tiny little bit higher chance to get noticed.
Yeah... I tried leaning into this with the colorful 'artstyle', but drawing isn't really my strong suit. So when it comes to the design I'll probably try to put more focus on the stuff that differentiates it. Which is, I guess, wacky 5e magic encounters, fantasy satire (leaning more towards PS:T), and the 'Questing Tree'. We'll see how well those turn out.
The UI problem is real though. If you look at my older videos, you can clearly see how the old UI was... an exact replica. Almost pixel perfect. On purpose, mind you, since it was just a little personal challenge to see if I could do it at that point. And any attempt I've made to move away from it has been difficult, since I'm essentially trying to improve upon their design. And I'm being serious: if anyone has any tips or opinions on how to change the UI to fit this more colorful wacky 5e fantasy satire, I would LOVE to hear it.
Also thanks for making the thread! I'm a long time lurker, so it was kind of surreal to see my dumb hobby game pop up here.
If drawing isn't your best suit, you're doing a bloody good job at it. I mean, If I was to say that drawing wasn't my best suit, I would have ended up with something like this:

View attachment 59783
Still better than Monsters of Mican assets
 

Hydro

Educated
Joined
Mar 30, 2024
Messages
649
Yeah... I tried leaning into this with the colorful 'artstyle', but drawing isn't really my strong suit.
If drawing isn't your best suit, you're doing a bloody good job at it. I mean, If I was to say that drawing wasn't my best suit, I would have ended up with something like this:

View attachment 59783
That's a lovely bunny

A lot has changed since 2022. Nowadays I'm working with a bunch of great artists to make all the art assets. Some more of the new artwork (and links to the collaborators) can be seen on the updated website.

View attachment 59796View attachment 59797

Slight difference.

So, sadly, my personal drawing abilities haven't improved too much over the years. On the other hand, it's allowed me to focus almost entirely on design, writing, programming, etc etc.
Looks rad man
Do you by any chance plan to implement HDR at some point?
DE with HDR looks awesome
 
Developer
Joined
Oct 25, 2018
Messages
25
Do you by any chance plan to implement HDR at some point?
DE with HDR looks awesome
Funny that you mention that. I'm still tinkering with the colors, so I had tonemapping turned off in that particular screenshot.

Off -> On:

1736190374555.png
1736190385888.png


Though I'm clueless when it comes to the technical details of HDR. I'lll be getting some help with that in the polish stages so the artwork gets to shine.
 

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