Editorial Jeff Vogel on innovation in indie games at RPGVault

[Spazmo]

Tags: Jeff Vogel; Spiderweb Software

<A HREF="http://rpgvault.ign.com" target="_blank">RPG Vault</A> has an interesting but short <a href=http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/692/692642p1.html>editorial</a> by Jeff Vogel of Spiderweb Software fame about the realities of indie development.<blockquote>Whenever I read one of these articles, I usually find that the writer presents one ray of hope, one bold knight who will struggle to invent the new genres that will totally rock us - the Indie Game Developer.
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Well, speaking as an Indie Game Developer, I have this to say... Don't look at us, man.
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Supposedly, as I understand it, we are free. e don't have The Man keeping us down and rejecting our ideas and forcing us to spend 80 hours a week programming the new shading engine for Doom 4. We got nothin' to lose, so we can just be creative.
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Sure.</blockquote>Vogel makes some alarmingly good points about innovation in gaming. Go read it.

 

[Seven]

It sounds like he's having a mid-life crisis. One thing that I have a problem with is that he goes on and on about how we want innovation--that's not true, we want quality. If any thing, with RPGs the people claiming to innovate are actually dumbing down and twitching up the genre. Instead, give us what's been done, make it polished, give us a compelling story, dialogue trees and a combat system that doesn't suck monkey ball.

 

[SanguinePenguin]

"But truly innovative games? The sort you're only going to see a few more times in your lifetime?

Those will come from Electronic Arts.

Please feel free to kill yourself now."

Wow, that is depressing.

But what's going to give big companies the incentive to try something new? Seems to me there wouldn't be any in significant amounts until the so called "graphics barrier" is breached and parallax mapping no longer cuts the cheese anymore.

 

[Zomg]

Eh, there's also Mount & Blade. His points have merit, though - I doubt exceptionally innovative indie development can be the rule rather than the exception.

Anyway, the less sexy benefit of indies, niche service, is still important, particularly in the context of these fora.

 

[merry andrew]

But what's going to give big companies the incentive to try something new?

If a company understands the difference between making a game for social/financial security and making a game in an attempt to further the art (sure every game is a mix of both, but there's always a lean), and are comfortable doing both... then it'll happen.

 

[spacemoose]

company... ...are comfortable... ...making a game in an attempt to further the art

I had a good laugh.

 

[LlamaGod]

Accepting defeat is always the best strategy!

 

[merry andrew]

... had a ...

Me too.

 

[RGE]

It sounds like he's having a mid-life crisis.

Seems to me as if he's just being realistic, which is something I'd expect from someone who's been able to manage their own success.

One thing that I have a problem with is that he goes on and on about how we want innovation ...

If you're one of the people writing articles about it, then yes. I'm not, so I don't think he's talking about me. But I think I've read a few articles where the hope of innovation was placed with indie developers.

But what's going to give big companies the incentive to try something new?

The promise of being able to cash in on the next big thing. The Sims make an awful lot of money, doesn't it? It's mainly a matter of trying to look before they leap, so they don't spend too much money on ideas that don't work out.

 

[almondblight]

Sounds to me like he's blowing off steam for the flack he's been getting over recycling elements of his games. Hey Jeff, we don't demand you reinvent the wheel, we just get pissed off when you give Exile crappy graphics and a new name and try to sell it to us again.

 

[LlamaGod]

Sounds to me like he's blowing off steam for the flack he's been getting over recycling elements of his games. Hey Jeff, we don't demand you reinvent the wheel, we just get pissed off when you give Exile crappy graphics and a new name and try to sell it to us again.

Who gives a flying fuck about graphics?

I just want an original plot and some new design elements. All the games feel like variations of each other, graphically they are the same. But graphics have never been the focus of any of the series.

I'm just tired of 'there is a force against your good-guy force and you gotta go stop it'. Atleast throw a SWERVE in there or something. Avernum 3 kinda had one but it was rather late.

Then all the secret rooms and levels are all designed quite similiar with very little difference.

And Geneforge's combat was rather meh.

 

[Azarkon]

While Jeff Vogel is unnecessarily pessimistic (probably due to the narrow niche that he occupies), his point is essentially sound. I have seen good, innovative indie games. I have not seen one that'd represent a revolution in the industry (in the sense that MMORPGs were, for example). The only real hope for indie development is to flaunt an idea that, if successful enough, might garner enough interest from other enthusiasts and, eventually, companies with large budgets. In this manner, indie games can pave the road for a genre-defining hit, and they're certainly the only hope niche gamers (and developers) have for realizing a part of their dreams. But rarely, if ever, more than that.

Now modding, on the other hand...

 

[almondblight]

Who gives a flying fuck about graphics?

I care, when that's the whole seeling point of the game. The Avernum series was the Exile series with new (and worse, IMHO) graphics and a somewhat improved interface. My point was I'm not sure someone who does this should really be talking about creativity.

But graphics have never been the focus of any of the series.

Again, it was a pretty big focus of the Avernum series.

 

[Visbhume]

Jeff Vogel has a penchant for thowing buckets full of cold unpleasant truths at the unsuspecting RPG aficionado. Like when, in a past IGN feature, he compared RPGs to passtimes like knitting while all the other developers waxed lyrical about the potential for storytelling in games, games as art and the like.

Jeff Vogel rules. Now, if he could make a game with graphics that didn't make my eyes bleed...

 

[Rendelius]

The real innovation in games won't be in software anymore, but in the hardware that enables you to play the game and control your actions. The basic system of an RPG is a constant, maybe you can change the presentation, but variations here are slim.

 

[Elwro]

I wonder if the failed attempt at innovation he'll be telling us about next month will be Blades of Avernum, which I think never really took off (= iirc only a few mods are finished), or something else.
I really like his Avernum series; but while I don't absolutely crave for innovation, I'd rather get games that don't feel like you've played them before from the start.

 

[Nicolai]

Gish is a great example of innovation in an indie game. :aiee:

 

[almondblight]

I wonder if the failed attempt at innovation he'll be telling us about next month will be Blades of Avernum, which I think never really took off (= iirc only a few mods are finished), or something else.

Well, Blades of Exile had a lot of scenarios, some pretty large, and many were supposed to do things that surpassed Vogel's work in many ways (why does it seem that not many people here have checked it out?). Anyway, I think most of the best creators were angry at Jeff for how the community was treated (bugs he never felt like fixing, general lack of support), and Jeff for his part put down the less Hack and Slash scenarios, saying most of his customers were 11 year old kids that liked to kill things and get "phat loot". I think BoA didn't have enough new things to really interest the old designers, and after so many years the community has just started to fall apart (I get this feeling, I'm not part of the community).

 

[LlamaGod]

http://p080.ezboard.com/fthelyceumfrm32

 

[bryce777]

It sounds like he's having a mid-life crisis. One thing that I have a problem with is that he goes on and on about how we want innovation--that's not true, we want quality. If any thing, with RPGs the people claiming to innovate are actually dumbing down and twitching up the genre. Instead, give us what's been done, make it polished, give us a compelling story, dialogue trees and a combat system that doesn't suck monkey ball.

That's a good point.

 

[Pr()ZaC]

It sounds like he's having a mid-life crisis. One thing that I have a problem with is that he goes on and on about how we want innovation--that's not true, we want quality. If any thing, with RPGs the people claiming to innovate are actually dumbing down and twitching up the genre. Instead, give us what's been done, make it polished, give us a compelling story, dialogue trees and a combat system that doesn't suck monkey ball.

That's a good point.

Yeah, but considering the state of PC GAMES today, that's a big innovation to me :p

 

[bryce777]

Eh, there's also Mount & Blade. His points have merit, though - I doubt exceptionally innovative indie development can be the rule rather than the exception.

Anyway, the less sexy benefit of indies, niche service, is still important, particularly in the context of these fora.

I think it just comes down to talent. People who can program a game, write a story, and come up with awesome gameplay are pretty rare individuals and in indieland it's hard to go from one man crew to a team and make enough money to get by.

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

I think the article is a bit too restrictive on its definition of "innovative". While truly new concepts may indeed be increasingly rare, There is an infinite realm for innovation in story, seting, plot, and character. Thats the reason people still write books. As far as RPG go, that's really all the innovation we need (as long as it sits on a solid base of game mechanics).

 

[Azarkon]

Maybe the term he's looking for is a combination of *gamer recognition* and *impact*. Jeff Vogel and Arcanum are not household names. Blizzard, Warcraft, and Final Fantasy are. The *impact* of a game like World of Warcraft on the industry and on gamers, even if its real innovations are limited, is far greater than anything an indie dev can ever dream of (but modders maybe exempt from this, since they take advantage of a popular game's existing impact, such as in the case of CounterStrike). A indie dev might come up with some real innovations, but he's never going to be acknowledged for them. The big titles are the ones that determine the industry's direction, that have *impact*.

 

[almondblight]

http://p080.ezboard.com/fthelyceumfrm32

http://p080.ezboard.com/fthelyceumfrm27

and from a long time member of the community:

"For the BoA contest, we had roughly 15 scenarios entered. Let's be generous and say that we had 20 altogether (including beta-testers') when the contest hit.

For the corresponding time in the BoE contest, we had soooooo many it's not even funny. Blades of Avernum does not have an answer to Amazonian Saga, Tatterdemalion, et cetera, DESPITE BoA's having a larger pool from which to draw designers. And I would be absolutely astonished if BoA had an answer to An Apology or Redemption 1-2 years from now."