Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Development Info GDC 2018 Talks: Michael Cranford, Josh Sawyer, Jeff Vogel

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,228
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Tags: Interplay; Jeff Vogel; Josh Sawyer; Michael Cranford; Obsidian Entertainment; Spiderweb Software; The Bard's Tale; The Bard's Tale II: The Destiny Knight

There were several Codex-relevant talks given at GDC last week. Bard's Tale creator Michael Cranford gave a presentation about the development of the first two games in the series, Obsidian's Josh Sawyer spoke about designing choice & consequence as part of a group session that also included the likes of Soren Johnson and Raph Koster, and Jeff Vogel gave a talk about being Jeff Vogel. Unlike previous years, this year GDC have been pretty quick about making the videos of these talks public. Here are the links:

Classic Game Postmortem: 'The Bard's Tale I and II'

This session will explore the conception and development of Interplay's 'The Bard's Tale I & II', led by Michael Cranford. He will share the vision that led him to the game's conception, design, and development from his years as a dungeon master. The games are an expression of Cranford's personal love for the genre and desire to surpass the experience of tabletop gaming. The session will explore the vision behind the game and help illuminate a trajectory in gaming which has remained strong to the current day.

Rules of the Game: Five Further Techniques from Rather Clever Designers (starts at 42:30)

How do you make your games work? There's no sure-fire way to design great games, but over numerous successful projects the best designers develop techniques that help them craft compelling experiences. Returning for GDC 2018, the Rules of the Game session takes five renowned designers and asks them to go into detail about a rule they've used in their work. Each speaker has ten minutes to dive into their technique and provide detailed examples about how they have used the rule in past projects, honestly sharing the pluses and minuses including where their rule works well and where it may be less applicable. These are personal rules that you may not always agree with, but they're guaranteed to provide interesting fodder for your own game design thoughts and help you build your own design rulebook.

Failing to Fail: The Spiderweb Software Way

In 1994, Jeff Vogel founded Spiderweb Software, one of the oldest continuously operating indie game companies. This is the story of the company, the tricks it used to endure and make money for decades in this brutal business, the history of indie gaming from a bunch of random shareware weirdoes to an industry powerhouse, and a pile of helpful business advice from someone who has stayed around for a long time. Features funny anecdotes, crunchy sales information, and the delightful rantings of a cranky old coot.​

I watched the first two of these, and Michael Cranford's presentation is definitely a highlight, taking an unusual turn in its second half to discuss Christian philosophy and settle some old scores. A live summary is available on Twitter courtesy of the illustrious Andrew Plotkin. There's no written summary for the session Josh Sawyer participated in, but its slides are available here. For Jeff Vogel's talk, there's an article summarizing it at GamesIndustry.
 
Joined
May 1, 2013
Messages
4,499
Location
The border of the imaginary
So lets see.

Michael Cranfird - I dunno much about him really

Josh Sawyer - SJW Autist Lord of Balance and Blandness; the eternal enemy of all fun loving grognards.

Jeff Vogel - After his Magnum Opus of Geneforge; he chimped out big time with Avadaon, nuAvernum and his inability to accept any form of criticism.
 
Last edited:

rojay

Scholar
Joined
Oct 23, 2015
Messages
360
So lets see.

Michael Cranfird - I dunno much about him really

Josh Sawyer - SJW Autist Lord of Balance and Blandness; the eternal enemy of all fun loving grognards.

Jeff Vogel - After his Magnum Opus of Geneforge; he chimped out big time with Avadaon, nuAvernum and his unability to accept any form of criticism.
That's got to be the most stereotypical "Codex" response ever.

a) "wtf?"

b) "cuck"

c) "SO over that guy"

Unless it's a parody post, in which case, well done.
 
Repressed Homosexual
Joined
Mar 29, 2010
Messages
17,867
Location
Ottawa, Can.
To me, "game design philosophy", "game design", "quest design", and any such expressions are all meaningless vanity. You don't make anything good by following a "design philosophy". You do it if you have the imagination and skill to materialize all your ideas in a coherent whole. They're trying to make it look much more romantically than it is, except Jeff Vogel. He always spoke realistically and reasonably without trying to insert abject ideas to sound smart.

Also, it seems Cranford has gone full-on SJW. Very disappointing. But then again he wouldn't be invited to GDC if that wasn't the case.
 

Ruzen

Savant
Joined
May 24, 2015
Messages
238
Michael Cranfird's presentation is really enjoyable but Sawyer is there for pure advertisement purposes you can really skip it.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,228
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
According to HHR -

Veteran developer who spends 15 minutes roasting a tranny in front of a shocked San Francisco audience before expounding upon his Christian philosophy: pretentious SJW

Guy who says this:

That brings up another consideration if one's thinking about indie game development as a 40-year career, as Vogel said it's important to shelter one's brain from all avenues of assault. While acknowledging that as a white male, he gets less abuse than others, what is directed his way is still plenty to affect him. As a result, he doesn't look at Steam reviews of his games. He doesn't visit forums. He quits Twitter if people are being mean to him and logs back on later "when the coast is clear." And if a relationship with a customer is turning south, he's not reluctant to end it.

Cool dude who tells it straight
 

Paul_cz

Arcane
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
Messages
1,996
I am watching Vogel because I love the guy's blog and so far (10 minutes in) it is enjoyable, about what I expected knowing his article writing.

Gonna watch the other two later.
 
Repressed Homosexual
Joined
Mar 29, 2010
Messages
17,867
Location
Ottawa, Can.
You leave out the parts where he is referring to a man who believes he is a woman as "she" multiple times, and apologizes for referring to him as "he" and by his birth name in the years where said man still hadn't begun disguising himself as a woman. In one of the questions he also points out how inclusive of every group, every demographic he now wants to be.

Jeff Vogel is from the Pacific Northwest Seattle area, which has always been very liberal, so I never expected anything different from him. He has the decency of not rubbing it into everyone's faces constantly.

Everything Jeff said was grounded in reality and practical, and as for the part you quoted from him, I agree with it. It doesn't serve any purpose to continuously immerse yourself in the negativity of perpetual Internet malcontents when you have a job to do.
 

MurkyShadow

Glittering gem of hatred
Patron
Joined
Mar 15, 2012
Messages
353
Location
ye olde europe
Codex 2012 Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong BattleTech Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit. I helped put crap in Monomyth
A charismatic talk by Michael Cranford, some tidbits I didn't know about the creation of the Bard's Tale.
And also a historic document:
Screenshot - 2018_04_01 17_25_26.png
 

Junmarko

† Cristo è Re †
Patron
Joined
Jun 20, 2011
Messages
3,480
Location
Schläfertempel
You leave out the parts where he is referring to a man who believes he is a woman as "she" multiple times, and apologizes for referring to him as "he" and by his birth name in the years where said man still hadn't begun disguising himself as a woman. In one of the questions he also points out how inclusive of every group, every demographic he now wants to be.
The best medicine for professional victims is making them search for a real goal in life.

It doesn't serve any purpose to continuously immerse yourself in the negativity of perpetual Internet malcontents when you have a job to do.
You forget the Codex collectively memeing Grimoire into reality :lol:
 
Last edited:

Paul_cz

Arcane
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
Messages
1,996
Finished the whole Vogel talk and yeah, awesome guy, with compatible sense of humor. Kinda makes me wish I wasn't such a graphics whore (I require at least Fallout 1 level graphics for me to enjoy a game) so I could play his games.

Him not reading forums and getting into twitter arguments I can respect, it is a waste of time anyway, as anyone who ever engaged in it can attest :p
 
Repressed Homosexual
Joined
Mar 29, 2010
Messages
17,867
Location
Ottawa, Can.
I never understood why so many people raged on Vogel and his ideas. He never acts like he is above us, that he is the one who is right and everyone else is wrong, and he is very humble and self-depreciating. His life anecdotes are tranchant, relatable and always fun to read. This is much more than can be said of virtually anyone else in the game industry.

So what if he doesn't have the drive and stamina to make "hardcore games" like he used to do. He just wants to keep his house, have enough for retirement and for his daughters' college fund while not completely draining himself.

You can tell this is someone who really cares about his audience. Who else refunds anyone who wants a refund on any of his games for up to a year after release?
 

vazha

Arcane
Joined
Aug 24, 2013
Messages
2,063
Vogel sounds like a complete asshead to be honest.
""If someone is on the forums and you can see that they're just there to cause trouble, ban them! If people are making noise, 'That person isn't screwing up your business, you shouldn't have banned them,' then ban them too! The beatings will continue until morale improves! ...People who are nice and support you will understand."
FFS.
 

Junmarko

† Cristo è Re †
Patron
Joined
Jun 20, 2011
Messages
3,480
Location
Schläfertempel
Him not reading forums and getting into twitter arguments I can respect, it is a waste of time anyway, as anyone who ever engaged in it can attest :p
Didn't know much about Vogel, other than I enjoyed some of his games back in the day. Got me through uni down-time on an old laptop + student fees ;) (+his map layout was cool, made exploration fun = easy to forget about aesthetic)

...that presentation was anti-matter though, holy-shit

Talking Points: Ordered by self-defeating.
  • We've been around a very long time.
  • We're a small studio of two, at one period, three.
  • We don't like working with other people.
  • We avoid constructive criticism.
  • The other employee is my wife
  • My graphical style was derided which annoyed me.
  • I re-use assets (upwards of 15 games)
  • Advertising doesn't work.
  • We've remade the Avernum series three times.
  • Geneforge 3 didn't sell due to similarity with installments 1 and 2.
  • The Steam platform has other games on it (Competition!? Oh no!).
  • Has to deal with Steam user community, but "he's white" so feedback isn't that bad etc (Leftist original sin)
  • I charged $40 for my games, back when I could *smirks after saying this* :argh:
  • I can't charge what I used to any more.

Worst Quote: "Do not let anyone shame you out of being cheap." (24:00)

Other...
Worst Quote: "I use methamphetamine..." (56:00)
:deadtroll:
 
Last edited:

Bohrain

Liturgist
Patron
Joined
Aug 10, 2016
Messages
1,442
Location
norf
My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
Given we have that 40+ page thread about that one guy who claims Fallout 3 is better than 2 and refuses listens to no arguments I can understand Vogel's point.
 

Glop_dweller

Prophet
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
1,161
Vogel sounds like a complete asshead to be honest.
""If someone is on the forums and you can see that they're just there to cause trouble, ban them!...
That sounds like Koster's advice.

Say... Does Jeff have a brother?
 
Last edited:
Repressed Homosexual
Joined
Mar 29, 2010
Messages
17,867
Location
Ottawa, Can.
Him not reading forums and getting into twitter arguments I can respect, it is a waste of time anyway, as anyone who ever engaged in it can attest :p
Didn't know much about Vogel, other than I enjoyed some of his games back in the day. Got me through uni down-time on an old laptop + student fees ;) (+his map layout was cool, made exploration fun = easy to forget about aesthetic)

...that presentation was anti-matter though, holy-shit

Talking Points: Ordered by self-defeating.
  • We've been around a very long time.
  • We're a small studio of two, at one period, three.
  • We don't like working with other people.
  • We avoid constructive criticism.
  • The other employee is my wife
  • My graphical style was derided which annoyed me.
  • I re-use assets (upwards of 15 games)
  • Advertising doesn't work.
  • We've remade the Avernum series three times.
  • Geneforge 3 didn't sell due to similarity with installments 1 and 2.
  • The Steam platform has other games on it.
  • Has to deal with Steam user community *but "he's white" so feedback isn't that bad etc* (leftist original sin)
  • I charged $40 for my games, back when I could *smirks*
  • I can't charge what I used to any more.

Worst Quote: "Do not let anyone shame you out of being cheap." (24:00)

Worst Other Quote: "I use methamphetamine..." (56:00)


:deadtroll:

And yet he has been in business for 24 years and counting.

Maybe indies should follow his example instead of peddling big dreams that will come crashing down?
 

Shaewaroz

Arcane
Patron
Joined
May 4, 2013
Messages
2,923
Location
In a hobo shack due to betting on neanderthal
I'm very into cock and ball torture
Cranford seemed to have come to GDC for one reason only - to set the record straight with Fargo and especially Heinemann.

However I don't doubt that he was always the only creative force responsible for Bard's Tale and that Heinemann basically made a fan mod called Bard's Tale 3.
 

Mustawd

Guest
Just watched the Vogel one. Pretty entertaining. Just him as a person seems p. cool. However, if you've been keeping up with with his soapbox thread there's like 15% new stuff. Still interesting to me though.
 

Paul_cz

Arcane
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
Messages
1,996
Vogel sounds like a complete asshead to be honest.
""If someone is on the forums and you can see that they're just there to cause trouble, ban them! If people are making noise, 'That person isn't screwing up your business, you shouldn't have banned them,' then ban them too! The beatings will continue until morale improves! ...People who are nice and support you will understand."
FFS.

Banning assholes and trolls on official forums is fine by me. Codex is the place for assholes and trolls and that's why I like it, but if I operated forum I would not want it to be like Codex :D
 

Bumvelcrow

Somewhat interesting
Patron
Dumbfuck
Joined
Nov 17, 2012
Messages
1,867,060
Location
Over the hills and far away
Codex 2013 Codex 2014 Make the Codex Great Again! Strap Yourselves In
I watched the Cranford one. Very interesting, and not a particularly flattering picture of Burger Becky! It was very obvious that he was going after the feeling of immersion and being there, and that the limits of Bards Tale were those imposed by technology rather than choice. He even went as far as to describe himself as 'not a gamer'. I think that if he had stayed in the games industry then the games he produced would have increasingly been ones I wouldn't want to play, like Richard Garriott, and we'd end up getting something like a better Ultima 9 from him somewhere down the line, rather than Bards Tale 4 as it is currently envisioned. Rather too much of the talk was on selling Mage's Tale, a game I'm definitely not going to buy.
 

Visbhume

Prophet
Joined
Jun 21, 2004
Messages
984
Cranford has some odd theological beliefs. That said, game designer / theologian is a cool combo!
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom