Editorial Give me 10 minute quests - a GamersInfo Editorial

[DarkUnderlord]

Tags: Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion

There's an interesting and seemingly contradictory article up at <a href="http://www.gamersinfo.net/">GamersInfo.net</a>. It's an <a href="http://www.gamersinfo.net/index.php?art/id:1286">Editorial on "open ended, epic-scale" games</a> by a guy who hates them. While I disagree fundamentally with his conclusion, he does have some interesting points. Here are a few:
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<blockquote>Super-Duper Cliff's Notes version -- RPG Developers: Stop creating "open ended, epic-scale" time-consuming worlds while ignoring the people that only have 10-30 minutes a night to play *and progress* in your game, i.e. the much sought-after, "casual," "mainstream" player.</blockquote>
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Now at this point, with its quest compass, hand-holding instructions and fast travel, I'm thinking "Oblivion was made for you!" but I'd be wrong because later...
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<blockquote>I'm going to invoke a game here that many people may not consider an RPG, but in my opinion, had collected some of the best elements of an RPG, and combined them in a less-than-traditional RPG manner. I'm talking about Grand Theft Auto III. Personally, I put WAY more than 100 hours into that game. Yet, I put less than 17 hours into Bethesda's Oblivion before I completely lost interest. Why? What did GTA3 have that kept me coming back, while something as in-depth and engrossing as Oblivion couldn't? Simple. It had in-game distractions.</blockquote>
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Did you ever get the feeling that some games simply weren't made for some people? Despite that though, he does make some interesting points. Namely that "Long, open ended, epic style quests can certainly be a good thing for an RPG. <b>As long as they are written well, and serve to draw the player into a compelling, deep, rich and satisfying game world</b>." Oblivion certainly didn't make any attempts to draw you in with it's poorly written, less than compelling, shallow game-world.
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<blockquote>For instance, I'm able to ride a horse in Oblivion. I can't do much else with them though. I can't fight while I'm on one. The horse can't carry any additional inventory for me. All it is, is a slightly faster, yet far less maneuverable version of walking, and a ridiculously slower version of teleporting from one known destination to another. Given the fact that in the short time I played with them, the horse always tried to wander off any time I got off of it, it's not like I was able to explore with it, then tie it up to a tree once I found a cave or ruin that I wanted to go into. Maybe I missed something with the horse, but still, Bethesda failed to make it accessible, or even make it understood that any of that could even be done.
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So I ask, why couldn't I do any of those things?</blockquote>
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... because they blew the budget on the forest! Which is why I disagree with his conclusion. He's played it and thinks that adding in more "useless but fun things to do" will make games like Oblivion better where-as I'd say that <i>it's all about making a compelling, interesting story that draws the player in</i>. If you make a game that BEGS people to play it, they'll find the time. Even if that means turning up late to work or calling in sick.
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So while his conclusion is fundamentally flawed, it's an interesting read.
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Thanks <b>Elwro</b> and <b>Dolar</b>!

 

[dojoteef]

I have to say I agree that in most RPGs very little can be accomplished in 10-30 mins of gameplay. I have come to long for an RPG that takes people with less time into mind. About the time I stopped posting as often on these boards I became quite busy (go figure). I have much less time to dedicate to RPGs. I wish I could have a satisfying cRPG experience in the short amount of time I have a day to dedicate to them. By the time I get caught up to speed on the quests I was working on the previous day and start accomplishing anything, it is time to stop again. With worlds that take forever and a day to cross it can be damn near impossible to get more than one or two side quests accomplished in such a short time, let alone a main story quest. Also, in playing for such a short duration each play session, the story starts to become very disjointed with most RPGs because the story is pieced together in such a haphazard and overly drawn out manner. Oh well. Maybe in another six months I will finally have more of the free time required for the cRPG experience.

 

[Zomg]

Well, you could actually make genuinely compelling 30 minute RPGs, in the Codex sense. Just think of pretty much any compelling scene for a small narrative, like something used in short stories - ex. a player character in a modern setting interrupts a murder, and then flow from there. You could have some little essentialized version of character creation at the beginning if you consider that a prerequisite for an RPG ex. a guy with three pips of wealth and a guy with zero pips of wealth have different options and abilities. There would even be a lot of strengths to that kind of short format that can't really be done in long format.

So, throw another unmakeable dream game on the pile then.

 

[Jim Kata]

The story is not the problem. The gameplay is the problem. If I wanted to watch a movie I would watch a movie.

 

[Twinfalls]

TFor instance, I'm able to ride a horse in Oblivion. I can't do much else with them though. I can't fight while I'm on one. The horse can't carry any additional inventory for me. All it is, is a slightly faster, yet far less maneuverable version of walking, and a ridiculously slower version of teleporting from one known destination to another. Given the fact that in the short time I played with them, the horse always tried to wander off any time I got off of it, it's not like I was able to explore with it, then tie it up to a tree once I found a cave or ruin that I wanted to go into. Maybe I missed something with the horse, but still, Bethesda failed to make it accessible, or even make it understood that any of that could even be done.

So I ask, why couldn't I do any of those things?

... because they blew the budget on the forest! Which is why I disagree with his conclusion. He's played it and thinks that adding in more "useless but fun things to do" will make games like Oblivion better where-as I'd say that <i>it's all about making a compelling, interesting story that draws the player in</i>.

There's a failure to get to the truth here, because of the use of silly words like 'compelling' and 'accessible'.

The simple answer to why Bethesda failed to make a game which entertains within 30 minutes is that they didn't include choices and consequences.

Take the horse. As the article says, it fails to entertain on its own. Why? It provides no consequences to the choice of riding it. Nor does it provide any choice in itself. Compare to Daggerfall, where you had:

Choice: you spend the money on a horse, and not new weaponry.
Consequence: You can carry more inventory. You can fight, and evade opponents, more easily. Cities were big enough such that riding a horse made them much easier to traverse.

Instead of expanding this (different horses carry more stuff, different horses give you more standing with NPCs, different horses can access different areas, NPCs actually steal horses), they reduced the possibilities.

Come on Codex, you invented the choice/consequence doctrine - apply it. The more choices and consequences there are at every stage of an RPG, the more interesting it becomes, even for the fabled 'casual' gamer.

 

[Nog Robbin]

Maybe some game styles just don't work well for the casual gamer, and instead of trying to shoe horn a game that does take time, dedication and thinking into a quick fix action blast, developers should distinguish between the two and develop accordingly. Otherwise you end up with an "RPG" that turns off true RPG players for being shallow and without life, and turn off the quick fix player by having it too deep and long winded to achieve things.

Adding choice and consequence would be something - but I don't see that alone as making it compelling to the quick burst gamer who wants excitement in very short bursts. A story of any depth doesn't really fit that sort of gaming style. An FPS may do, as the story is very rarely relevant - a quick fix may let you complete a level (or maybe try and fail a couple of times). But you don't need to remember where you were, or what you were trying to achieve. I think with an RPG you need to play a bit longer - unless you can always remember where you were, what you were currently trying to achieve, and what your main character aims/personality etc. were.

Unfortunately, just throwing more combat into the mix so there is something to do between quests isn't really the solution, and while fast transport has been hailed as the saviour for the quick game fix, you have to ask if it's really necessary on a game world you can walk across in about an hour. Quest design could be made such that you don't need to keep travelling the whole distance as well.

 

[Elwro]

with it's quest compass

"ITS", GODDAMIT!
Stop corrupting young, innocent minds with foul apostrophery!

 

[whatusername]

apostrophery

"APOSTROPHES", GODDAMIT!
Stop corrupting young, innocent minds with foul vocabulary!

 

[Twinfalls]

Apostrophage.

 

[Lumpy]

Pw'nt.

 

[Elwro]

Yeah, seems like someone didn't get the wittiful jestery of my postitudiness.

 

[Admiral Rimjob POOBUM]

Its not that witty. After all, it's funniness is rather unfunnieded by it's unfunnyness.

 

[suibhne]

Why would you type "funniness" and "unfunnyness" in the same sentence?

WHY???!!

 

[Admiral Rimjob POOBUM]

Why would you type "funniness" and "unfunnyness" in the same sentence?

WHY???!!

Its rite.

 

[Naked_Lunch]

Apostrophe (') is a really good album

 

[Whipporowill]

Apostrophe (') is a really good album

Me I'm more of a fan of ().

 

[Naked_Lunch]

Sigur Ros is pretty awesome, too. As is Uncle Moe's Space Ranch which is probably some of the best fusion I've ever heard.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

He's played it and thinks that adding in more "useless but fun things to do" will make games like Oblivion better where-as I'd say that <i>it's all about making a compelling, interesting story that draws the player in</i>.

The simple answer to why Bethesda failed to make a game which entertains within 30 minutes is that they didn't include choices and consequences.

Actually, I agree and I'm not quite sure what I was smoking when I said "compelling story". I think things like more interactivity with the horses and such as well as useless yet fun things like better corpse dragging (how am I supposed to stash everyone's corpse in the prison if I can't drag them upstairs or through doors, hello?) and gory corpse dismemberment would make Oblivion loads more fun.

What I actually disagree with is his "super cliff notes version" conclusion:

Stop creating "open ended, epic-scale" time-consuming worlds while ignoring the people that only have 10-30 minutes a night to play *and progress* in your game, i.e. the much sought-after, "casual," "mainstream" player.

Oblivion is all about the 10 minute quest and the casual gamer. Everything is marked on your map where to go and in most cases, you can fast travel there (if it's a main city) or to a location near there (if you've been out that way before) in no-time at all. If you can't then no matter because I swear it literally takes about 10 minutes to run across the entire gameworld. Most quests take little more than 10 minutes to complete and that's if you include travel time. In fact I think his article is more about making fun gameplay than it is about "casual gamers who only have 10 minutes to spare". Some things in GTA take longer than 10 minutes for example and I highly doubt that his "over 100 hours" spent in that game was all done in 10 to 30 minute increments.

However, I think the key is to "draw the player into a compelling, deep, rich and satisfying game world" as he says. Part of that comes with story but you're right in that a lot of it comes from simply being able to do interesting things. In some respects Oblivion got it right with the sneakery business and some of the better quests but the fact that there's nothing worthwhile to steal and that you don't need to steal given eventually, everyone starts wearing glass armour, makes it all moot.

with it's quest compass

"ITS", GODDAMIT!
Stop corrupting young, innocent minds with foul apostrophery!

What are you talking about? It looks fine in the article to me.