Review Eschalon: Book I reviewed right here

[Calis]

Tags: Eschalon: Book I

Elwro has been busy writing a <A HREF="http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=170">review</A> of Eschalon: Book 1, rather than the research proposal he's supposed to write. A taste:
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<blockquote>I've heard people say Eschalon is "turn based", but in reality it's nothing like the "please stand still while I use my action points to get near you and whack you with my hammer" games we've all learned to love and admire. It's more similar to very simple roguelike combat – when you stand still, the world stands still with you; when you move, you don't move alone. (Sorry if you don't get the obscure reference I'm trying to make.) You try to hit someone, they attempt to fight back. Why "very simple"? One thing is that the speed mechanics are quite, um, basic. All creatures (save for a few exceptions) act with the same speed. One square of movements equals one strike. This means that fleeing and chasing often become ridiculous, as most of the time the attacker and the poor victim move with exactly the same speed. The only thing you can count on is that your AI opponent is not as effective as you at moving around the trees and other obstacles you might encounter on your way. This means that Haste potions, which double your action speed, are very powerful, and are a big reason why the Alchemy skill is a valuable one.</blockquote>
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<A HREF="http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=170">Read all about it</A>

 

[Futile Rhetoric]

For the sad old earth must borrow its mirth,
But has trouble enough of its own.

Decent review, I might give the game a try if I find the time.

 

[VonVentrue]

That was a good read. Two thumbs up, Elwro.

 

[fastpunk]

Eschalon: Book I reviewed right here

So I've noticed. You mind putting The Witcher review back though? Its page contains a copy of the Eschalon review, not what it should.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=165

 

[Saxon1974]

A pretty accurate review. I think im one of the few the doesn't have a problem with the walking speed.

I have big hopes for Book II.

 

[Section8]

A pretty accurate review. I think im one of the few the doesn't have a problem with the walking speed.

I had dramas with it until I switched to OpenGL rendering. I recommend anyone else who has a problem with it trying the same.

 

[denizsi]

The way quests work only one way and without stat use in dialogue/quests sound like isometric Oblivion. Moving and interaction with the world sounds like a drag. I think even knowing that made me feel not wanting to try.

Shame that developers still seem to be hung up on trivial asspacts like travel-LARPing, and only provide other trivial and possibly annoying ways to walk around it, like spells, magical gates etc. I find myself increasingly intolerant of any game or type of game I like, which has an affinity to restrict travel with artificials rules for absolutely nothing. Terrible waste of time. There you are, playing click-clicky-click-click-click merely walking between places and suddenly, I say "WTF is this, WTF am I doing?"

Also, how many games has there been now, where you end up with a gazillion keys and not a keychain to manage them, tidy up your inventory? For fuck's sake, when a game has that shit and is moddable, keychains are one of the first things that get "fixed". That alone should give out some hints. I'd think devs get a certain kind of enjoyment out of cluttering inventory screen with all kinds of useful and useless shit, mixed together.

Practical use of light seems to be a nice touch, it definitely sounds appealing to me. Having two separate skills such as "hide in shadows" and "move silently" is also nice and feels so natural.

I think 2D iso devs should have long moved onto vectorial graphics for scalable 2D rendering. Unless you're a complete indie without any commercial gain, like FIFE devs, going resolution-bound 2D today looks so fucking senseless to me.

 

[Micmu]

Agree with the review. My only complaint about the game is that's it is way too short. But as the auhor claims, the next one will be 2-3 times larger so there is to hope.

 

[Saxon1974]

The way quests work only one way and without stat use in dialogue/quests sound like isometric Oblivion. Moving and interaction with the world sounds like a drag. I think even knowing that made me feel not wanting to try.

Shame that developers still seem to be hung up on trivial asspacts like travel-LARPing, and only provide other trivial and possibly annoying ways to walk around it, like spells, magical gates etc. I find myself increasingly intolerant of any game or type of game I like, which has an affinity to restrict travel with artificials rules for absolutely nothing. Terrible waste of time. There you are, playing click-clicky-click-click-click merely walking between places and suddenly, I say "WTF is this, WTF am I doing?"

Also, how many games has there been now, where you end up with a gazillion keys and not a keychain to manage them, tidy up your inventory? For fuck's sake, when a game has that shit and is moddable, keychains are one of the first things that get "fixed". That alone should give out some hints. I'd think devs get a certain kind of enjoyment out of cluttering inventory screen with all kinds of useful and useless shit, mixed together.

Practical use of light seems to be a nice touch, it definitely sounds appealing to me. Having two separate skills such as "hide in shadows" and "move silently" is also nice and feels so natural.

I think 2D iso devs should have long moved onto vectorial graphics for scalable 2D rendering. Unless you're a complete indie without any commercial gain, like FIFE devs, going resolution-bound 2D today looks so fucking senseless to me.

Well I still think the part I enjoyed most about the game was exploring the different areas, so I really dont think the movement speed impacts the fun of exploration....or at least it didn't for me.

 

[Dhruin]

A pretty good review, Elwro. A couple of minor points.

It seems many people complaining about walk speed either had performance issues or problems with the D3D renderer...I'd suggest this might be exactly because of your below-spec computer. I thought the speed was fine.

The Speed stat does make a difference. Now, I was disappointed I didn't get a second attack (or whatever) but if you pump speed you'll definitely outrun mobs - it isn't one exact square each as you suggest. I will admit the difference isn't very big and I expected more out of the stat.

Lastly, just on a personal note, I like the movement system. I found it less tiring to lock the W key than click, click, click.

 

[Shagnak]

The Speed stat does make a difference. Now, I was disappointed I didn't get a second attack (or whatever) but if you pump speed you'll definitely outrun mobs - it isn't one exact square each as you suggest. I will admit the difference isn't very big and I expected more out of the stat.

Actually, Elwro and I had a discussion about this before publication. I found some old quotes (c2006) that indicated what you're saying is correct (and what I assumed was happening with my high Speed character).

Example quote:

Book I's combat is turn-based, but the duration of a turn is governed by your character's Speed attribute. As it increases, the time it takes to cast a spell or swing a sword decreases, allowing you perform more turns in the same span of time than a slower opponent would be able to

Now that is talking about combat but given the step-wise nature of the game I assumed that applied to everything. But I couldn't find anything that unequivocally stated this in the manual or in the game's forum after the game's release.
I therefore supposed that I was mistaken and that the developers instead simulated the effect of speed on combat actions by incorporating into combat damage.
As per the manual:

For melee weapons, Maximum Damage is derived from Strength and Speed

...and that any perceived speed difference (i.e. difference in relative number of turns) was a set one configured per monster (e.g. the acid grubs, whom everyone seemed to notice a movement speed difference with).

So...now I don't know
Was my original assumption correct? Anyone got some definitive evidence?

 

[Elwro]

A pretty good review, Elwro. A couple of minor points.

It seems many people complaining about walk speed either had performance issues or problems with the D3D renderer...I'd suggest this might be exactly because of your below-spec computer. I thought the speed was fine.

Well, I played the majority of the game on an Athlon 3600+, so that's not the case.

The Speed stat does make a difference. Now, I was disappointed I didn't get a second attack (or whatever) but if you pump speed you'll definitely outrun mobs - it isn't one exact square each as you suggest.

I'm not convinced. If you can outrun mobs, you can get 2 attacks instead of moving. I mean, it cannot happen that you want to hit someone and the game doesn't let you do that, yet permitting movement. So, when it comes to your action, in non-haste situations it's "move one square" or "try to hit". Of course, some mobs do not chase you in the most effective way, so you may outrun them even without haste.

 

[Dhruin]

It's not a big point and doesn't impact the substance of your review in any pertinent way...but I'm pretty sure it can happen. A high speed character moves further per game "tick", whereas attacks all take one tick.

 

[Amasius]

Elwro just isn't angry and bitter enough for a Codex reviewer.

Just kidding. Excellent and very detailed review, critical but always fair. Hope to see more from him.

 

[Calis]

Eschalon: Book I reviewed right here

So I've noticed. You mind putting The Witcher review back though? Its page contains a copy of the Eschalon review, not what it should.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=165

Yeah, Baby Arm pointed that out to me as well. I somehow fucked up a database edit, it seems. Can't for the life of me imagine how I screwed that up. Anyway, I dug through an 800 meg database text backup to retrieve the article, so it's back.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

So, where's the awesome score? Dammit, I need numbers!

Anyway, loved the review, thought it was very good at being critical etc. Overall I loved the game and thought it was a phenomenal first one for such a small company. Graphics didn't bug me as I'm not a whore. The combat took some time to get used to, but after a level or two I got used to it. A word to the wise: Cartography is friggin a great skill to have! Alchemy is incredibly overpowered but awesome nonetheless. Swords rule.

 

[fastpunk]

Eschalon: Book I reviewed right here

So I've noticed. You mind putting The Witcher review back though? Its page contains a copy of the Eschalon review, not what it should.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=165

Yeah, Baby Arm pointed that out to me as well. I somehow fucked up a database edit, it seems. Can't for the life of me imagine how I screwed that up. Anyway, I dug through an 800 meg database text backup to retrieve the article, so it's back.

Hey, thanks. I wanted to read it yesterday when I noticed the bug, guess I'll check it out now.

 

[JarlFrank]

I've got myself the game now, and I agree with most points in the review. The walking speed is pretty normal for me, although it could be a bit faster. Would make exploration even more fun and less "work" if you know what I mean. Also, the darkness of the dungeons is awesome.

 

[Claw]

It's not a big point and doesn't impact the substance of your review in any pertinent way...but I'm pretty sure it can happen. A high speed character moves further per game "tick", whereas attacks all take one tick.

I always thought it was an animation issue. Some monsters like "Fanged Salamanders" are so slow you can run circles around them even with a Speed score of seven.

Also, it's only possible to outrun monsters if you keep your character moving, If you tell your character to move a step and then wait, all monsters will also move a step. But if you tell your character to run without pause, you can leave virtually every monster behind, especially if you change direction a few times. I especially noticed that with Tauren. They can keep up with the player character as long as you are running in a straight line, but if you change direction you can increase the distance.

 

[Elwro]

As for Speed, I got an answer from the devs:

"Really, you are correct. The Speed attribute doesn't effect on-screen physical movement. In the first draft of the rules, we were going to make speed correspond to number of hits per round, so that at Speed 20 you'd get 2 hits per round, at 30 you'd get 3 hits, etc. Anyone here who knows Eschalon's play mechanics can see the flaw in this: it is ridiculously overly powerful. So this was cut out in favor of the Haste spell/potion which does the same thing but for a limited length of time.

Now then, all creatures do have their own speed attribute as well and that does effect their on-screen movement rate. For example, you'll see that Acid Grubbs move noticeably slower than Taurex.

The plan for Book II is to implement a feature that I wanted to put into Book I but couldn't get it perfected in time: your speed effects everyone else's movement rate. I know, this is radical thinking, but it really simple. It's all based on relativity...you know, Einstein's ideas. As your speed increases, you'll never see yourself move faster but everyone else will move a little slower. For example, maybe you can't outrun a Taurex with a Speed of 10, but once you get to 20 you'll notice that you can nearly always out pace them, and if you get a Speed of 30 you'd have no trouble at all getting away from them even if you are surrounded.

Also, in Book I and II Speed still effects your Maximum Damage as well. The harder you can swing a weapon (Strength) and the faster you can do it (Speed) directly corresponds to the impact (Force) of your weapon."

 

[Special_Can]

Shame that developers still seem to be hung up on trivial asspacts like travel-LARPing, and only provide other trivial and possibly annoying ways to walk around it, like spells, magical gates etc.

Hm?

 

[Shagnak]

As for Speed, I got an answer from the devs:

Awesome. Thanks for clarification, Elwro.

 

[Dhruin]

Fair enough.