Development Info Emil on Fallout 3's level scaling, combat and armour

[DarkUnderlord]

Tags: Fallout 3

<a href="http://fallout3.wordpress.com/2008/07/02/lead-designer-jumps-into-the-forum/">Briosafreak has a run-down of comments made in the official forums by Fallout 3 Lead Designer Emil Pagliarulo</a>:
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<blockquote>[Level Scaling] I’d say that:
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a.) because of the issues some people had with Oblivion’s leveling
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and
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b.) the fact that we’ve really been focusing on the importance of overall game balance…
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…this is something the dev team has come back to time and time again during our playtests, and is something we’re still tweaking. We’ve finally gotten it to a level that we feel really good about.
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<br>
So basically, if you do the main quest path and adhere strictly to that, there are some areas that are set up to match your level, so you don’t get your ass handed to you unfairly while just naturally playing the game. But certain paths and locations are more difficult, by design.
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It’s also the case that the farther you wander out into the Wasteland, the more you’re taking your life into your own hands if you’re not prepared. I mean, hey, a Deatchlaw’s a Deathclaw. smile.gif
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And, um, yeah — no Raiders in Power Armor.</blockquote>
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I'm certain they felt "really good about" all the decisions they made in Oblivion at the time too. The truth will be in the pudding. <a href="http://fallout3.wordpress.com/2008/07/02/lead-designer-jumps-into-the-forum/">There's a bit more on combat and stuff too</a>.
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Spotted @ <a href="http://fallout3.wordpress.com/2008/07/02/lead-designer-jumps-into-the-forum/">Brio's Fallout 3 Blog</a>

 

[Fat Dragon]

So basically, if you do the main quest path and adhere strictly to that, there are some areas that are set up to match your level

Even the dumbfucks that call Oblivion the best RPG made bitched about the level scaling. You'd think Bethesda would have at least fixed that problem, but then you'd be wrong. Fuck, just remove it completely.

 

[J1M]

The most ironic thing of all is that the people who thought level scaling was a great idea for Oblivion are the ones deciding which focus testers to listen to. Listening too much to the average focus tester is a bad idea. So is letting someone who fails at game design make decisions. Doing both? Well they have to cancel each other out, amirite?

 

[gc051360]

So basically, if you do the main quest path and adhere strictly to that, there are some areas that are set up to match your level, so you don’t get your ass handed to you unfairly while just naturally playing the game

Unfairly?

 

[Azrael the cat]

Read it, interesting points - I don't think the game will be as bad as Oblivion, if for no reason than it will have at least one case of C+C and the level-scaling won't suck as much...
...BUT let's say that Oblivion delivers on EVERYTHING that they have promised. We'll have (drum roll)...DEUS EX a game released almost 10 years ago! (much fanfare)

Seriously at the time that DE came out I already thought that traditional isometric party-rpgs were dead. The flurry of such games had dried up, and the last few I'd played had been more combat focused, and less roleplaying-ish since FO and PS:T. In fact (and yes it IS heresy that I preferred BG2 to FO and still do, I can't quite explain it but I don't exactly hide the fact that BG2 comes shortly after FO and VTM:B in my top games, maybe b/c the BG games were the first ones I played after Wiz 1-3 and U2, and so I was just enthralled by the lack of need to use graph paper to handmap). And as soon as I saw the success of Diablo, I thought 'we're fucked'.

But then DE came along. And roleplaying wise it was a big step down. But it was damn fun, and I thought - here it is, this is what rpgs will become. They'll all be FPS with rpg-elements, DE benig the first of many games like it.

And I was fine with that. To this day I can't see why the genre DIDN'T go in that direction, using the tech to give multiple stealth/diplomacy/shooting/tech paths. Heck, there are at least 3 ways that FP is BETTER for action roleplaying which always gets horribly underdone. Stealth is actually a matter of fun and skill in a good FPS-RPG, rather than just clicking the stealth button - you can integrate character skills in meaningful ways (such as cloaking skills, stealth metres etc). Same for tech paths - in isometric rpgs these are 'click on x item to activate then walk to goal', whereas in a game like DEx actually reaching the controls and working out what to do is a fun gameplay mechanic. And 3rdly it is better for placing 'hidden' areas, which can be hard to find on a 3rd level whereas isometric levels are just a matter of filling out all gaps in the automap. Not that I prefer FP to isometric - buts its these things that made it all the crazier than instead of more games like DE, we got hack-and-slash crap, MINIGAMES (which undermines the whole fucking point of making it first person!) and oblivion.

VTM:B should have been the logical sequel to DE, with that being the standard type of rpg that rpgs got dumbed down to. Things that console kiddies can play as dress-em-up shooters, while rpg gamers will still have fun with, even if we miss the games of old.

FO3, if they deliver everything perfectly, will still be a step 7 years backwards in gameplay. And yet that would still make it a cutting edge game (sob)

 

[Longshanks]

And I was fine with that. To this day I can't see why the genre DIDN'T go in that direction, using the tech to give multiple stealth/diplomacy/shooting/tech paths. Heck, there are at least 3 ways that FP is BETTER for action roleplaying which always gets horribly underdone. Stealth is actually a matter of fun and skill in a good FPS-RPG, rather than just clicking the stealth button - you can integrate character skills in meaningful ways (such as cloaking skills, stealth metres etc).

Didn't sell well enough.
Also, FPS combat + character stats almost always sucks - including in Deus Ex, especially for the FPS players it's mostly aimed at.

System Shock 2 came before Deus Ex, and was better.
None of the FPS/RPGs have sold well, maybe Fallout 3 will be the first.

These games would probably work better without character skill affecting combat, or doing so minimally (like NOLF).

 

[Mareus]

Read it, interesting points - I don't think the game will be as bad as Oblivion, if for no reason than it will have at least one case of C+C and the level-scaling won't suck as much...
...BUT let's say that Oblivion delivers on EVERYTHING that they have promised. We'll have (drum roll)...DEUS EX a game released almost 10 years ago! (much fanfare)

Seriously at the time that DE came out I already thought that traditional isometric party-rpgs were dead. The flurry of such games had dried up, and the last few I'd played had been more combat focused, and less roleplaying-ish since FO and PS:T. In fact (and yes it IS heresy that I preferred BG2 to FO and still do, I can't quite explain it but I don't exactly hide the fact that BG2 comes shortly after FO and VTM:B in my top games, maybe b/c the BG games were the first ones I played after Wiz 1-3 and U2, and so I was just enthralled by the lack of need to use graph paper to handmap). And as soon as I saw the success of Diablo, I thought 'we're fucked'.

But then DE came along. And roleplaying wise it was a big step down. But it was damn fun, and I thought - here it is, this is what rpgs will become. They'll all be FPS with rpg-elements, DE benig the first of many games like it.

And I was fine with that. To this day I can't see why the genre DIDN'T go in that direction, using the tech to give multiple stealth/diplomacy/shooting/tech paths. Heck, there are at least 3 ways that FP is BETTER for action roleplaying which always gets horribly underdone. Stealth is actually a matter of fun and skill in a good FPS-RPG, rather than just clicking the stealth button - you can integrate character skills in meaningful ways (such as cloaking skills, stealth metres etc). Same for tech paths - in isometric rpgs these are 'click on x item to activate then walk to goal', whereas in a game like DEx actually reaching the controls and working out what to do is a fun gameplay mechanic. And 3rdly it is better for placing 'hidden' areas, which can be hard to find on a 3rd level whereas isometric levels are just a matter of filling out all gaps in the automap. Not that I prefer FP to isometric - buts its these things that made it all the crazier than instead of more games like DE, we got hack-and-slash crap, MINIGAMES (which undermines the whole fucking point of making it first person!) and oblivion.

VTM:B should have been the logical sequel to DE, with that being the standard type of rpg that rpgs got dumbed down to. Things that console kiddies can play as dress-em-up shooters, while rpg gamers will still have fun with, even if we miss the games of old.

FO3, if they deliver everything perfectly, will still be a step 7 years backwards in gameplay. And yet that would still make it a cutting edge game (sob)

Deus Ex was awsome, and I wouldn't mind seeing more similar games, but don't you think that sequels should offer atleast similar gameplay? I mean if you wanna make a brand new game in completely new engine.. sure.. go ahead. But you fucking CANNOT take the cult game and remove everything that made it famous and hope the fans will like it. Besides I am so sick of everything being 3D that I would pay a fortune for a new 2D isometric game. Even adventures are fucking 3D now. EVEN FUCKING CARTOONS ARE IN 3D!!! FUCK!!

 

[MF]

Damn, Emile is a fat-ass. I have nothing against chubby people, but he's just grossly obese. How can someone design a game if he spends all day eating hamburgers and drinking coke?

 

[Herbert West]

A bit of level scaling makes sense in free roam games. Killing rats easily and being unable to pass 10 meters further due to uberpowerful badgers roaming over the next hill is quite stupid and could be equated to putting an indestructible glass wall there.
On the other hand, meeting a fucking rat on lvl 50 that could rape and obliterate the ogre you met ten levels ago, and yes, that could also bite your bloody head off in your daedric helmet of the walrus reeks of idiocy.

There's a very fine line to thread here. There be dragons on both sides and I don't think Bethesda could suceed, if the appaling mess they made with oblivion level scaling is any indicator.

 

[TalesfromtheCrypt]

Damn, Emile is a fat-ass. I have nothing against chubby people, but he's just grossly obese. How can someone design a game if he spends all day eating hamburgers and drinking coke?

 

[Trash]

Damn, Emile is a fat-ass. I have nothing against chubby people, but he's just grossly obese. How can someone design a game if he spends all day eating hamburgers and drinking coke?

I'd say the two go hand in hand.

 

[WhiskeyWolf]

Let's get one thing straight.

Level Scaling = THE EVIL (...and most anti-RPG element ever)

Period.

 

[Helton]

Got milk?

 

[Helton]

I'd like to scale to your level, if you know what I mean?

 

[Azrael the cat]

Read it, interesting points - I don't think the game will be as bad as Oblivion, if for no reason than it will have at least one case of C+C and the level-scaling won't suck as much...
...BUT let's say that Oblivion delivers on EVERYTHING that they have promised. We'll have (drum roll)...DEUS EX a game released almost 10 years ago! (much fanfare)

Seriously at the time that DE came out I already thought that traditional isometric party-rpgs were dead. The flurry of such games had dried up, and the last few I'd played had been more combat focused, and less roleplaying-ish since FO and PS:T. In fact (and yes it IS heresy that I preferred BG2 to FO and still do, I can't quite explain it but I don't exactly hide the fact that BG2 comes shortly after FO and VTM:B in my top games, maybe b/c the BG games were the first ones I played after Wiz 1-3 and U2, and so I was just enthralled by the lack of need to use graph paper to handmap). And as soon as I saw the success of Diablo, I thought 'we're fucked'.

But then DE came along. And roleplaying wise it was a big step down. But it was damn fun, and I thought - here it is, this is what rpgs will become. They'll all be FPS with rpg-elements, DE benig the first of many games like it.

And I was fine with that. To this day I can't see why the genre DIDN'T go in that direction, using the tech to give multiple stealth/diplomacy/shooting/tech paths. Heck, there are at least 3 ways that FP is BETTER for action roleplaying which always gets horribly underdone. Stealth is actually a matter of fun and skill in a good FPS-RPG, rather than just clicking the stealth button - you can integrate character skills in meaningful ways (such as cloaking skills, stealth metres etc). Same for tech paths - in isometric rpgs these are 'click on x item to activate then walk to goal', whereas in a game like DEx actually reaching the controls and working out what to do is a fun gameplay mechanic. And 3rdly it is better for placing 'hidden' areas, which can be hard to find on a 3rd level whereas isometric levels are just a matter of filling out all gaps in the automap. Not that I prefer FP to isometric - buts its these things that made it all the crazier than instead of more games like DE, we got hack-and-slash crap, MINIGAMES (which undermines the whole fucking point of making it first person!) and oblivion.

VTM:B should have been the logical sequel to DE, with that being the standard type of rpg that rpgs got dumbed down to. Things that console kiddies can play as dress-em-up shooters, while rpg gamers will still have fun with, even if we miss the games of old.

FO3, if they deliver everything perfectly, will still be a step 7 years backwards in gameplay. And yet that would still make it a cutting edge game (sob)

Deus Ex was awsome, and I wouldn't mind seeing more similar games, but don't you think that sequels should offer atleast similar gameplay? I mean if you wanna make a brand new game in completely new engine.. sure.. go ahead. But you fucking CANNOT take the cult game and remove everything that made it famous and hope the fans will like it. Besides I am so sick of everything being 3D that I would pay a fortune for a new 2D isometric game. Even adventures are fucking 3D now. EVEN FUCKING CARTOONS ARE IN 3D!!! FUCK!!

I agree - for me Deus Ex is what rpgs should go to IF they must sell out and prostitute themselves. Obviously I'd prefer to see more isometric party-based rpgs, but I had given up on that years ago