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Editorial BioWare Just Might Save Your Baby

Jason

chasing a bee
Joined
Jun 30, 2005
Messages
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Location
baby arm fantasy island
Tags: BioWare

Johnny Walker took an amusing swing at BioWare's attempts at shoehorning morality into RPGs with an <a href="http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/08/26/morality-tales-bioware-versus-the-issues/">article</a> at <a href="http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/">Rock Paper Shotgun</a>.
<br>
<blockquote>One thing I really want to do is go and sit down with Dr and Dr BioWare, and be having a regular chat, probably asking questions about Dragon Age or something journalistic like that, and then suddenly in the middle of it all I’d shout, “MY SISTER WANTS TO GET AN ABORTION! WHAT SHOULD SHE DO?”
<br>
<br>
When they look scared and ask what I’m talking about, I’d only offer them the very slightest pieces of information about the situation, probably saying that the unborn baby might have some sort of horrible disability and she doesn’t want it to be born to suffer, but her husband is currently away at sea and unreachable (because it’s happening in the past or in space or somewhere where radio signals don’t work) and won’t be able to have his say. I’d only give them two possible answers, and their stuttering, unprepared response would decide the fate of this unfortunate foetus. And then I’d ask them about how the Sonic license first caught their attention.</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
Spotted at: <A HREF="http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/">Rock Paper Shotgun</A>
 

MetalCraze

Arcane
Joined
Jul 3, 2007
Messages
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Location
Urkanistan
They won't have much trouble answering really because the dialogue choices are clear:
1. You must tell her to give a birth to a baby
2. You must tell her to do the abortion
3. I will answer for a price
 

bobisimo

Novice
Joined
Jun 5, 2008
Messages
22
Location
Chicago
There was also this in the comments:

Patrick Weekes says:

Howdy. I’m the writer responsible for the widow and her brother-in-law mysteriously having no trouble with you intruding yourself into a deeply personal discussion about gene therapy. This article had me laughing out loud, and it also raised some excellent points that reflect what we’re thinking in the office.

That plot coming down the way it did was the result of a lot of factors.

We needed to fill up some space on the Citadel with a ton of little quests. The Citadel is beautiful and marvelous and epic in its proportions, and also really flipping huge and empty. This meant that fairly late in development, the writing team hunkered down to fill up an area the size of one of the major story worlds with a ton of small roleplaying encounters.

Also, the fact that the Citadel is so big means that if you try to have combat, the 360 emits a high-pitched whine and then explodes. Even without combat, the Citadel pushes the 360 to the edge of its memory constraints pretty hard, and at one point in playtesting, we were playing in a special game mode, “Get from one end of the Presidium to the other without crashing,” using our FPS indicators as sonar to try to figure out which way to go without our memory going splat. As a result, our plot designs for the roleplaying plots had to include not a whole lot of combat and limits to the number of characters and the size of their dialog files. (Note that combat that does take place on the Citadel as part of the critpath tends to happen in small hallway areas with doors nearby as level-load areas.)

Add to THAT the fact that the tech guys are swamped by putting together a game in a new engine, with the arrival of new combat functionality like cover and tech beacons requiring last-minute changes to every fighting area in the game, and you’ve got tech guys who don’t have a whole lot of time to do complex scripting on the plots you wrote in about a day apiece. The plot with the grieving widower, for example, is generally considered to be stronger than the not-at-all-about-MMR plot. It’s also more complex, with two conversations and multiple options for who says what and goes where and when they do it. (It’s not very complex as plots go, but it’s more complex than “These guys fire one conversation, then despawn after you’re done talking to them.”) That complexity extends to QA as well. Given that QA found bugs on these plots that ranged from people not appearing to people appearing too early to people despawning but still firing their ambient “Hey, Spectre, come talk to me!” lines despite, you know, not being there, the simpler we could make those plots, the better. (Note: Not a knock on our tech guys. Our tech guys were awesome. Also, they were learning a new engine and scripting system. The writers made their share of fun mistakes, and our conversation system didn’t change as much as their scripting system.)

None of which means that you’re wrong and I’m right. What it means is that at the time, we looked at that plot and said, “Okay, we’ve got some that have several conversations already. Let’s try to do this one as a one-and-out.” It was my call, I made it, and when I looked at it in the final game, I knew that I’d been wrong, since, as you correctly noted, it feels way too weird to have these people just include you in the conversation. In the more complex widower plot, there’s at least a plausible reason that the widower needs you to be involved.

What bums me out about that plot is that it really isn’t one the writers just tossed out casually. We argued about what the issue would be. After I wrote it, I passed it to our editor, and she came back with some tough criticism. Where she will often just correct my spelling or grammar, this time she told me that my initial take was turning the widow into the stereotypical weeping woman, with the uncle as the voice of reason. We wanted it to be more complex than that, with both sides bringing their own baggage to one of those “Neither of these choices are exactly right” issues; the wife is grieving and afraid to lose the baby, the brother is grieving and desperate to give the baby the chance his brother didn’t have. The editor and I actually stayed late working on revisions to that one, and we were proud of how it turned out.

Then we heard it voiced over and realized that I hadn’t been specific enough in my VO comments (which the writers place on every line), and when I’d written “angry and frustrated”, I’d been thinking of a West Wing kind of way, and what I got was an actor yelling “My BAAAAAAABEEEEE!!!” because she thought she was supposed to be more overwrought than I’d intended. It came out like bad soap opera, but it wasn’t a major enough plot to do a retake on the voicework, so in it went. That’s also on me: I’m a newb writer, and I didn’t make my VO comments detailed enough. With better delivery, I think the plot would have felt stronger.

Finally, Mass Effect is the first BioWare CRPG to take place in a setting that includes the real world in its history. It’s not the real world, because it’s the future, but it’s a heck of a lot closer to the real world than Jade Empire or KotOR was. The fact that we can actually reference real-world history and events (except for Hitler, because, you know, we want to sell in Germany) gave us an opportunity to hit real-world problems in new ways, and we were excited about that.

That new cool opportunity also screwed some things up. People talk about the Uncanny Valley as it applies to character design, but it’s equally true for plot design. Your elven ranger can walk up and interrupt the baker and his wife as they argue about whether to use garden crystals to keep the bugs out of their garden, even though garden crystals attract skeletal rats in the long run, and even if some part of the player’s mind realizes that these people are awfully eager to include you in their thinly veiled pesticide metaphor, the player is generally thinking about magic crystals and undead rats and just doesn’t care that much about being invited into a deeply personal conversation between a husband and wife, or is congratulating him- or herself for seeing that incredibly complex pesticide metaphor and doesn’t care how gamey the plot structure is.

You put that same plot in the real world, or something where people have names like Ashley “Boom-stick” Williams instead of Alustria Swiftarrow, and people aren’t thinking about crystals and rats, and that plot design that wouldn’t have bothered the player in a fantasy game sticks out like a sore thumb… a sore thumb who is JUST THINKING ABOUT THE BABY!

Overall, I’m really proud of the small part I had on Mass Effect. There are some plots I’d love to take back and get the chance to do again, knowing what I know now about how they’d play once they were actually in the game, and there are some that came together just wonderfully. In the offices, designers on all the projects are playing the game, making a lot of the same observations you just did, and looking for ways to improve what we do. I hope that you’ll see us improve in the next game.

August 26th, 2008 at 6:36 pm
 

Jaime Lannister

Arbiter
Joined
Jun 15, 2007
Messages
7,183
skyway said:
They won't have much trouble answering really because the dialogue choices are clear:
1. Abortion is wrong!
2a. Kill every baby, ever! (KOTOR evil, absent in NWN)
2b. Abortion is wrong! Now give me money not to tell anyone! (NWN evil, absent in KOTOR)

fixed
 

Jaime Lannister

Arbiter
Joined
Jun 15, 2007
Messages
7,183
Volourn said:
Jaime Lannister said:
skyway said:
They won't have much trouble answering really because the dialogue choices are clear:
1. Abortion is wrong!
2a. Kill every baby, ever! (KOTOR evil, absent in NWN)
2b. Abortion is wrong! Now give me money not to tell anyone! (NWN evil, absent in KOTOR)

fixed

Wrong. R00fles!
 
Joined
Apr 4, 2007
Messages
3,585
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Motherfuckerville
skyway said:
Now the thread about Bioware is complete

No it's not. And if you don't like it....tough noogies.

Now let's enslave some nations with necromancy, grab some collars, and drink EXTREME soft drinks.

gave us an opportunity to hit real-world problems in new ways

You mean by being as blunt as can be? Some Mass Effect quests were sorta there, like the one with the addict, but nothing breaks immersion faster than a couple asking a party of heavily armed strangers whether or not they should do some morally ambiguous medical procedure.
 

ushdugery

Scholar
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Messages
371
Edward_R_Murrow said:
skyway said:
Now the thread about Bioware is complete

No it's not. And if you don't like it....tough noogies.

Now let's enslave some nations with necromancy, grab some collars, and drink EXTREME soft drinks.

gave us an opportunity to hit real-world problems in new ways

You mean by being as blunt as can be? Some Mass Effect quests were sorta there, like the one with the addict, but nothing breaks immersion faster than a couple asking a party of heavily armed strangers whether or not they should do some morally ambiguous medical procedure.
Wrong still arguing even though you already lost.
Bioware has no faults.
R00fles!
 

inwoker

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Apr 27, 2007
Messages
15,509
Location
Kyiv, Ukraine
Volourn said:
"Bioware has no faults."

Who thinks this? :?
Somebody who has just overreacted.
And now, Volourn, you should write how you gave first nwn 75% and therefore my statement fails.
 

Warden

Arbiter
Joined
Jul 12, 2007
Messages
1,106
Location
In your nightmare.
I think Bioware should, as a tribute to Volourn, include "R00fles!" as a dialogue option in every dialogue they write, ever. It makes sense.

Of course, bioWare doesn't believe in bad things like politics, religion, moral dilemmas - that's all just for the realm of fantasy; hence why they ban this content from their nice little forums and have games full of such things. Therefore, it makes them really confused if they're faced with such topics in real life.
 

Warden

Arbiter
Joined
Jul 12, 2007
Messages
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Location
In your nightmare.
As espected, bioWhore has readily closed the thread about this review in their "Off-topic" forum. :lol:


http://forums.bioware.com/viewtopic.htm ... 6&forum=22

The only thing you can discuss there are movies (since that is what sir mayonnaise likes, except mayonnaise of course).. and even that's tricky because movies can be about violence, politics, religion etc. and that's reserved only, and I repeat only, for bioWare digtal super-emotional games. :cry:

While this stays active (opened by sir mayonnaise):

http://forums.bioware.com/viewtopic.htm ... 6&forum=22

They should invent a new scale of retardation just for bioWare because they break the lower limits of the current one.
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Messages
24,924
"And now, Volourn, you should write how you gave first nwn 75% and therefore my statement fails."

Read the DA baords - specifically threads on DA's death system, and regenerating mana and health. Then come back, and tell me that I believe that BIO has no faults. Dumbass.
 

aries202

Erudite
Joined
Mar 5, 2005
Messages
1,066
Location
Denmark, Europe
On the BIoware forums, there is a place for official and fans reviews for Mass Effect - in the Mass Effect general forums. Patrick Weekes made some of the best and interesting comments on the RPS website.

As for the quest mentioned on the RPS site, I actually like this sort of quest. It was poorly done, apparently, but I like any non combat quests in rpgs. They add to to the flavour, to the intrigue and to the development of my character in the game.
 

inwoker

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Apr 27, 2007
Messages
15,509
Location
Kyiv, Ukraine
Volourn said:
"And now, Volourn, you should write how you gave first nwn 75% and therefore my statement fails."

Read the DA baords - specifically threads on DA's death system, and regenerating mana and health. Then come back, and tell me that I believe that BIO has no faults. Dumbass.
irony here is obvious
 

Murk

Arcane
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Messages
13,459
"volourn, i disagree, please explain"

"i already have, go find it on your own"

GLORIOUS
 

Claw

Erudite
Patron
Joined
Aug 7, 2004
Messages
3,777
Location
The center of my world.
Project: Eternity Divinity: Original Sin 2
Patrick Weekes said:
That new cool opportunity also screwed some things up. People talk about the Uncanny Valley as it applies to character design, but it’s equally true for plot design. Your elven ranger can walk up and interrupt the baker and his wife as they argue about whether to use garden crystals to keep the bugs out of their garden, even though garden crystals attract skeletal rats in the long run, and even if some part of the player’s mind realizes that these people are awfully eager to include you in their thinly veiled pesticide metaphor, the player is generally thinking about magic crystals and undead rats and just doesn’t care that much about being invited into a deeply personal conversation between a husband and wife, or is congratulating him- or herself for seeing that incredibly complex pesticide metaphor and doesn’t care how gamey the plot structure is.
No.


That's why I don't play Bioware games.
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Messages
24,924
"irony here is obvious"

Retardedness here is obvious.
 

Lesifoere

Liturgist
Joined
Oct 26, 2007
Messages
4,071
Patrick Weekes said:
That new cool opportunity also screwed some things up. People talk about the Uncanny Valley as it applies to character design, but it’s equally true for plot design. Your elven ranger can walk up and interrupt the baker and his wife as they argue about whether to use garden crystals to keep the bugs out of their garden, even though garden crystals attract skeletal rats in the long run, and even if some part of the player’s mind realizes that these people are awfully eager to include you in their thinly veiled pesticide metaphor, the player is generally thinking about magic crystals and undead rats and just doesn’t care that much about being invited into a deeply personal conversation between a husband and wife, or is congratulating him- or herself for seeing that incredibly complex pesticide metaphor and doesn’t care how gamey the plot structure is.

Errr, what the hell? I don't think he knows what "Uncanny Valley" means.
 

Shannow

Waster of Time
Joined
Sep 15, 2006
Messages
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Location
Finnegan's Wake
Volourn said:
"irony here is obvious"

Retardedness here is obvious.
That too. Volly, re-read his posts. You don't seem to understand why you are making a fool out of yourself. Usually you seem more conscious about it.
 

bat_boro

Arcane
Joined
Nov 22, 2006
Messages
1,531
biowarejn4.jpg
 

Redeye

Arcane
Joined
Jun 27, 2006
Messages
8,247
Location
filth
Where is option to buy child?
 

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