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Game News GameSpot names KotOR Best RPG 2003

Spazmo

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Tags: BioWare; Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic

<a href="http://www.gamespot.com/pc">Gamespot PC</a> have put up most of their Game of the year awards by now and their pick for <a href=http://www.gamespot.com/gamespot/features/all/bestof2003/day4_16.html>Best RPG of the year</a> is <a href=http://www.bioware.com>BioWare</a>'s <a href=http://www.swkotor.com>Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic.</a>
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<blockquote>But, best of all, the open-ended role-playing-game nature of Knights of the Old Republic makes this, in many ways, the most vivid Star Wars experience ever. Since your character can always choose good or evil actions in response to the game's countless quests and situations, you implicitly feel the temptation of "falling to the dark side" as you play through the game. Knights does not judge you, though, and delivers just as entertaining of an experience whether you choose to be good, evil, or somewhere in between. It's an exceptional role-playing game, and the fact that it's an exceptionally good Star Wars game is just icing on the cake.</blockquote>
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Everybody loves Star Wars, yeah. I'd like to see some more Jedi Knight games, personally.
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Psilon

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A true sequel to Dark Forces would be nice (hordes of stormtroopers and no lightsabers), but I'd really rather have another TIE Fighter.
 

Flink

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Amen! I personally am very sick of the Jedi and the Force. It wasn't such a huge part of the old movies. In the new movies and in most games as of late its been spread so thick it almost makes you vomit. Tie Fighter is in my opinion the best Star Wars game ever made, and it doesn't have a thing about the force or the Jedi in it!
 

Sheriff05

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Spazmo said:
Everybody loves Star Wars, yeah. I'd like to see some more Jedi Knight games, personally.

Since I love to talk about things that bug the shit out of me, let me reiterate
I simply don't get the attraction, Star Wars simply put, Sucks-
yeah, ok it was cool for those of us that were 10-15 years old between 1977 and 1981
but that's it...It's pretty well accepted by most adults with a serious interest in Science Fiction that George Lucas is total asshole who wanted to make a fantasy sci-fi sesame street and made a billions making essentially big budget toy commericals-

This is really odd to me as I find so many of the folks here at RPG Codex so right on the money about so much and yet so clueless about what a total load of shit of Star Wars is.
I understand the initial interest, I understand the nostalgia, but when you get down to brass tacks and look for substance in the mythology?..you get a transparent, cliche..black and white, politically correct pablum for pre-teens.

I'm sure someone will chime in about "X" author who wrote some *great* book and sure I have run across some decent looking SW comics/ graphic novels back in the day, but that doesn't overlook the greater point that all movies other than the first two completely suck, and in retrospect the first two aren't even that great.

It's pretty plain to all of you how imbecibles in the quest for mainstream success
have sucked the life out of "what's good" about PC gaming (RPG's specifically)
but yet you don't chastise KotOR, brought to you by LucasArts the model in which Bioware, Interplay and rest have disembowled themselves trying to emulate.

I don't understand the disconnect.

Even if you disregard all the baggage that comes with a Star Wars title and just look at KotoR as a decent and fun computer game.
I would think you guys would be ripping these lame over the top accolades the game is receiving to shreds, just on principle.

Am I only one who finds the general consenus here that KotOR is *OK* as a guilty pleasure, just a bit hypocritical?

I mean you aren't planning on dressing up as Obi Wan and waiting in line for two days to see episode III, are you?
 

triCritical

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Was there like any competition for it this year? Probably Gothic 2, but not a lot of people call that a CRPG. Anyhow, the GotY is kind of a worthless honor, considering how many people hated Arcanum and that got GotY by most of the gaming rags. Still, I don't there were any other high budget CRPG's released this years for the PC.

In retrospect, KotOR being GotY just means that CRPG players are having less and less big budget games to play.
 

Spazmo

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That's true. This was a pretty poor year for CRPGs and in fact wasn't terribly good for PC gaming at large.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Sheriff05 said:
I simply don't get the attraction, Star Wars simply put, Sucks-
yeah, ok it was cool for those of us that were 10-15 years old between 1977 and 1981
but that's it...It's pretty well accepted by most adults with a serious interest in Science Fiction that George Lucas is total asshole who wanted to make a fantasy sci-fi sesame street and made a billions making essentially big budget toy commericals-
SW is an idea, a setting, just like Fallout is. Fallout 1 is a great game, FO2 was good, and then we have FOT and FOBOS. May be in 10 years people playing Fallout: BOS vs Teenage Ninja Mutant Turtles would ask “what kinda idiots liked this Fallout crap” but the blame would not lay with the setting but with the implementation.

This is really odd to me as I find so many of the folks here at RPG Codex so right on the money about so much and yet so clueless about what a total load of shit of Star Wars is.
Nobody’s right all the time. :)

I understand the initial interest, I understand the nostalgia, but when you get down to brass tacks and look for substance in the mythology?..you get a transparent, cliche..black and white, politically correct pablum for pre-teens.
No, you get a setting that could be used either way

but that doesn't overlook the greater point that all movies other than the first two completely suck, and in retrospect the first two aren't even that great.
Everything sucks in retrospect, young padawan :cool: :lol:

It's pretty plain to all of you how imbecibles in the quest for mainstream success
have sucked the life out of "what's good" about PC gaming (RPG's specifically)
but yet you don't chastise KotOR, brought to you by LucasArts the model in which Bioware, Interplay and rest have disembowled themselves trying to emulate.
Hmm, I thought we did. We’ve discussed KOTOR and its numerous shortcomings many times in several threads, but being fair we noted that it’s an improvement over the old Bio model: there is a clear evil path, there are some choices, there are some consequences, there are different ways to handle quests. You wouldn’t expect people to hate KOTOR just because it’s a SW product? After all, there are plenty of good game based on some vanilla and/or cliche universes.

Even if you disregard all the baggage that comes with a Star Wars title and just look at KotoR as a decent and fun computer game.
I would think you guys would be ripping these lame over the top accolades the game is receiving to shreds, just on principle.
What principle would that be? Regardless, it’s better then many other so called role-playing games like Arx Fatalis, Morrowind, Gothic, the first 2 NWN games (I haven't played the last one so I won't comment), and many others, and that’s worth noting.

Am I only one who finds the general consenus here that KotOR is *OK* as a guilty pleasure, just a bit hypocritical?
Guess so :wink:
 

Diogo Ribeiro

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Actually the staff, and the rest of us... er, non-staffers, harp on its hype when the case asks for it; many times, this all comes from teh funnay comments the staff types out at the end of the newsbits that quote profeshunal reviaws.
 

Spazmo

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I just like Star Wars. Sure, it's simplistic. Sure, it's a black and white model of morality. Sure, there's no real philosophical substance. I don't really give a shit. It's just cool. If I want philosophy, I'll take a class at school. If I want a fun movie, Star Wars is hard to beat.
 

Sheriff05

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Messages
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Chicago
Vault Dweller said:
SW is an idea, a setting, just like Fallout is. Fallout 1 is a great game, FO2 was good, and then we have FOT and FOBOS. May be in 10 years people playing Fallout: BOS vs Teenage Ninja Mutant Turtles would ask “what kinda idiots liked this Fallout crap” but the blame would not lay with the setting but with the implementation.

Yeah, but its an idea with a long ugly track record of really cheesy shit
Ewoks, Jar Jar, annoying kids who save the day, "I'm your father", I'm your sister", etc, etc. not to mention Lucas' megomanical mass marketing of the franchise to Mcdonalds style proportions. When was the last time you broke out your Fallout bedsheets?
Fallout doesn't have anywhere near the mass appeal-saturation that something like Star Wars has, and it's not likely to. I am sure anyone here can take any medicore setting and make something good of it, that doesn't undo 25 years of taking a novel idea and potential decent setting and turning into a space age- sesame street in order to sell toys.
I mean take a multiplayer game of Dungeon Siege, get 5 or 6 six good online role players
and you could have an entertaining experience, that doesn't excuse the fact the game is total shit and the setting is milk-toast generic.



Hmm, I thought we did. We’ve discussed KOTOR and its numerous shortcomings many times in several threads, but being fair we noted that it’s an improvement over the old Bio model: there is a clear evil path, there are some choices, there are some consequences, there are different ways to handle quests. You wouldn’t expect people to hate KOTOR just because it’s a SW product? After all, there are plenty of good game based on some vanilla and/or cliche universes.

It's just seems to me it's getting a somewhat of "free ride",
while it may very well be the best Bioware game to come down the pipe in awhile
Does that excuse the same old "profesuhnal reviewerz" from stupidly overhyping it?
or excuse 25 years of crass commericalism from Lucas and company?
I mean people will just assume rip Atari an new asshole (deservedly so)
as take a drink of water yet somehow LucasArts gets a pass?

I guess I can't just *look the other way* and see the *game* at its face value apart from the larger issues that come along with any Star Wars title.
yes, that's my problem- guess I was wondering if anyone agreed-

What principle would that be? Regardless, it’s better then many other so called role-playing games like Arx Fatalis, Morrowind, Gothic, the first 2 NWN games (I haven't played the last one so I won't comment), and many others, and that’s worth noting.

That may very well be and is worth mentioning, but when every moron under the sun
is raising the victory flag, proclaiming "KotOR, Game of Year!, maybe the Millenium!"
something is starting to smell don't you think?



Am I only one who finds the general consenus here that KotOR is *OK* as a guilty pleasure, just a bit hypocritical?
Guess so :wink:

Hey thanks for answering, I am probably just "too old" to get it
 

Sheriff05

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Spazmo said:
I just like Star Wars. Sure, it's simplistic. Sure, it's a black and white model of morality. Sure, there's no real philosophical substance. I don't really give a shit. It's just cool. If I want philosophy, I'll take a class at school. If I want a fun movie, Star Wars is hard to beat.

Fair Enough, :cool:
 

Otaku_Hanzo

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The state of insanity.
Constipated Craprunner said:
MDK 2. Baldur's Gate 1&2 had thier upsides at least more often then KOTOR or NWN did.

MDK2 I'll give you. That game plain ass rocked. That's for sure. BG1 is a so-so issue for me. BG2.... well, I didn't like the game so I won't comment. ;)
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Messages
28,024
Sheriff05 said:
Yeah, but its an idea with a long ugly track record of really cheesy shit Ewoks, Jar Jar, annoying kids who save the day, "I'm your father", I'm your sister", etc, etc. not to mention Lucas' megomanical mass marketing of the franchise to Mcdonalds style proportions.
Don't blame Lucas, blame the idiots who buy this stuff. As for Ewoks and Jar Jar sure they were annoying, but there are plenty of SW stuff that's great or good including some games like TIE fighter, Dark Forces, and Jedi Knight.

Fallout hasn't doesn't have anywhere near the mass appeal-saturation that something like Star Wars has, and it's not likely to. I am sure anyone here can take any medicore setting and make something good of it, that doesn't undo 25 years of taking a novel idea and potential decent setting and turning into a space age- sesame street in order to sell toys.
I used Fallout as an example of a setting that was implemented good and bad, but certainly it couldn't be compared to SW in terms of popularity and brand recognition. My take is just because something is getting dumbed down and ready for mass market doesn't mean that we should forget about everything that was good and ignore what could be done. Take DnD for example and that good vs evil thing that WotC got going in order to market it as a family product, it's stupid, I hate it, I won't buy, but it doesn't mean that DnD sucks overall.

I mean take a multiplayer game of Dungeon Siege, get 5 or 6 six good online role players and you could have an entertaining experience, that doesn't excuse the fact the game is total shit and the setting is milk-toast generic.
Wrong analogy. DS was never good to begin with.

It's just seems to me it's getting a somewhat of "free ride",
while it may very well be the best Bioware game to come down the pipe in awhile
I'm not very clear on that free ride thing. Can you give me an example of that?

Does that excuse the same old "profesuhnal reviewerz" from stupidly overhyping it? or excuse 25 years of crass commericalism from Lucas and company?
Why should we care about Lucas' commercialism? How does that relate to KOTOR? It didn't have any Ewoks, Jar-Jar, or any other cute character Lucas is planning to sell next, so what's the point?

I mean people will just assume rip Atari an new asshole (deservedly so)
as take a drink of water yet somehow LucasArts gets a pass?
If you are talking about Atari screwing ToEE, that's different.

I guess I can't just *look the other way* and see the *game* at its face value apart from the larger issues that come along with any Star Wars title.
It's your right and your choice.

That may very well be and is worth mentioning, but when every moron under the sun is raising the victory flag, proclaiming "KotOR, Game of Year!, maybe the Millenium!"
something is starting to smell don't you think?
Something started to smell long time ago. Like I said the problem lays with the media and consumers not with titles like KOTOR. Is KOTOR a terrible game? No. Should reviewers maintain some integrity? Definitely. But as long as morons are happy and like to read overhyped and overly positive reviews regardless of the flaws, the situation wouldn't change. If there wasn't KOTOR they would have hyped something else, like Bloodmoon or Deus Ex 2: Less is More.

Hey thanks for answering, I am probably just "too old" to get it
No problem, I'm always here for discussions and arguing about stuff :) Speaking of which where is Volourn?
 

Sheriff05

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Vault Dweller said:
Don't blame Lucas, blame the idiots who buy this stuff. As for Ewoks and Jar Jar sure they were annoying, but there are plenty of SW stuff that's great or good including some games like TIE fighter, Dark Forces, and Jedi Knight.

You have to blame Lucas, it's *his* enterprise *his* content
it's not like- for example: Peter Jacksons LotR's turned out rated G, Orcs were cute,
Gandalf was Santa Claus and Sauron was played by Pee Wee Herman, we all could say "screw! Jackson, at least we have Tolkien to fall back on, Such is not the case with Star Wars, It Lucas creation, He choose the path, How to market it, how and who he wanted to identify with it.
Funny, you see the jury has been out for me on Star Wars for so long, I have never played any of those games- I still could never get past the Ewoks in 1983.

I used Fallout as an example of a setting that was implemented good and bad, but certainly it couldn't be compared to SW in terms of popularity and brand recognition. My take is just because something is getting dumbed down and ready for mass market doesn't mean that we should forget about everything that was good and ignore what could be done. Take DnD for example and that good vs evil thing that WotC got going in order to market it as a family product, it's stupid, I hate it, I won't buy, but it doesn't mean that DnD sucks overall.

Point being, That the core setting of Fallout was good, it's fallen into bad hands over time
and it *is* what it is. Same goes for D&D, it's deteriorated over time due to corporate mis-managment, not due to its creator
Again Star Wars actual proprietor is the problem, he is and has been in 100% control of the franchise while his intial idea may have had promise- money, sucess, whatever, turned it to shit. While you can ignore all the bad shit, I can't- it's all part of the same thing.
When you were playing KotOR weren't you worried that Jar Jar or Ewoks were going to suddenly appear?, especially when it was made by Bioware...with their *wacky* Canadian sense of humor. I'd be expecting the worst.


Wrong analogy. DS was never good to begin with.

point being- most *any* setting can "be repaired" of it's faults by an individual, but you cannot fix the larger issues you'll never have control over.
thereby, it will always suck-


I'm not very clear on that free ride thing. Can you give me an example of that?

Sure, given what I've mentioned about the franchise in general and the fact it's been developed by Bioware, whom we both know has been seriously lacking in the
"being able to deliver the goods" department..this game should be held to the highest standard possible, from what I read it's a got a few different endings and didn't ship with too many noticable bugs and all of sudden HOLY SHIT- it's game of year???
so here's the question- is the game really "that" good, or is just the competition overall so mediocre that people just forget what a good game is-
Is it being heralded out of some sort of nostalgic desperation for Star Wars?
As Spazmo says "everyone just loves Star Wars" , so is an average game magically now a stellar game just because it's says Star Wars on the box?
You'll have to tell me....but the "profesunhl reviewrz" are acting like somebody reinvented the wheel. Here at RPG Codex I was expecting a bit more criticial analysis.



Why should we care about Lucas' commercialism? How does that relate to KOTOR? It didn't have any Ewoks, Jar-Jar, or any other cute character Lucas is planning to sell next, so what's the point?

Think I answered this above, but in case I wasn't clear, it's all implicity tied together
you cannot play "apples and oranges" with different Star Wars products and then go complain about the shitty state of computer or RPG gaming.



I mean people will just assume rip Atari an new asshole (deservedly so)
as take a drink of water yet somehow LucasArts gets a pass?
If you are talking about Atari screwing ToEE, that's different.

Again, LucasArts wants to make console games they can port to PC for people that don't know any better, they aren't interested in making better PC games,
even thou KotOR seems to be the exception to the rule, remember it came out on Xbox first.
Everyone who's pissed about the shitty state of Fallout, or BIS closing should realize that morons at interplay are all taking there cue from people like LucasArts
"lets make console games, they are geared toward a younger fanbase that are less critical and spend there parents money easier!, PC gamers are an older crowd and hard to please, they have *standards* fuck them" !,
I mentioned Atari simply as another shitty company, they just have a higher negative profile right now...IF you give a shit about indpendent developers getting the chance to make better PC games, you won't give people like LucasArts your money-

Something started to smell long time ago. Like I said the problem lays with the media and consumers not with titles like KOTOR. Is KOTOR a terrible game? No. Should reviewers maintain some integrity? Definitely. But as long as morons are happy and like to read overhyped and overly positive reviews regardless of the flaws, the situation wouldn't change. If there wasn't KOTOR they would have hyped something else, like Bloodmoon or Deus Ex 2: Less is More.

So true, call it like you see it-
I just hope I can point out that the success of this game has larger negative ramifications for those of us that want to see smart, well made adult oriented PC games.
As long as everyone holds the game to the same standard they hold everything else to, that's the best you can hope for-
 

Section8

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MDK 2 was pretty fun but it had some god awful moments, ie every single one of the shitty little "minigames." Parachute! Dodge the Asteroids! Trial and Error Fish Maze! Fuck off, let me get back to the meat of the game.
 

Otaku_Hanzo

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Yes, the minigames got old. But one of my favorite cinematics in the game came right after the shoot the asteroids mini-game. Classic stuff.
 

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