Review Gamebanshee Reviews Avadon

[Jaesun]

Tags: Avadon: The Black Fortress; Jeff Vogel; Spiderweb Software

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<p>Brother None has posted up his <a href="http://www.gamebanshee.com/reviews/102789-avadon-the-black-fortress.html">review</a> of Spiderweb Software's latest cRPG Avadon: The Black Fortress. Here are a few snippets and his conclusion:</p>
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<blockquote>
<p>Spiderweb Software's Jeff Vogel is a veteran to the indie RPG industry of over 15 years. In that time, he has always stuck to making top-down, classic-style cRPGs, and he still hasn't deviated from that basic framework. Still, within that genre there can be a lot of variations. Linear or more free-roaming. Full of choice and consequence or more protective of the player. Party-based or single-player.</p>
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<p>Avadon gives us fairly typical high-fantasy fare, presenting us with magic-rich, medieval-type nations struggling with threats of wretches (goblins) and titans (giants), as well as upholding unsteady alliances with dragons and other powerful factions. Even the world map looks like it could come straight from the inside jacket of a fantasy novel, with an alliance of five nations called the Midlands Pact sitting in the middle, bordered by fallen empires or wild lands threatening their security.&nbsp;</p>
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<p>Where Avernum had its underground prison setting and Geneforge has its geneforging and rebellion, Avadon doesn't have an obvious hook. The franchise is named for the large fortress that sits at the junction of three nations, a power independent of each nation that acts to see that every nation follows agreed-upon rules and to aid nations that need help with border issues. This makes it pretty clear that the Avadon franchise is focused on the Midlands Pact, its internal and external issues, and the position the fortress holds there.&nbsp;</p>
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<p>Considering I spent a good part of this review highlighting some major problems, you might have the impression that I disliked the game. I did not. It is still a typical Spiderweb RPG at its core, and shows a lot of what Jeff Vogel learned in writing, pacing, and encounter design to its fullest. Whether or not you like it depends on two things: whether or not you like Spiderweb games, and whether or not you like a lot of BioWare's typical design choices. Because that's what Avadon is: Spiderweb at its core, but with a big BioWare pap smeared over it, with its greater accessibility, its use of followers, its cosmetic dialog choices, and its heavy emphasis on a linear narrative.&nbsp;</p>
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<p>Avadon has a few big disadvantages that keep me from embracing it fully. For one, Spiderweb's previous two titles, Geneforge 5 and Avernum 6, were outstanding RPGs, Geneforge 5 being one of their best and Avernum 6 a Game of the Year candidate here on GameBanshee. Those are some lofty heights, and it might be unfair to expect Jeff Vogel to match such heights while simultaneously launching a whole new property. For example, a lot of its core systems and design decisions feel a bit rough, the vitality regeneration or limited class/skill system are decent starts for a new IP, but I think they need a lot of work to be really enjoyable rather than just functional.</p>
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<p>The last disadvantage is a more personal one, and thus one that depends on your personal preferences. Spiderweb always filled a specific hardcore niche, and Avadon is one step outside of that very niche that his previous titles filled. &nbsp;It has a less unique setting and a more accessible RPG system, which aren't what I was hoping for with a brand new franchise. Jeff Vogel has stated his admiration of BioWare before, and perhaps with the company becoming even more casual he fills a niche that BioWare is now leaving, but I feel like I can get RPGs that protect me from my own choices and offer a linear narrative and simple RPG system anywhere, while Avernum and Geneforge offered more unique content.&nbsp;</p>
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<p>That said, a lot of the problems I listed are fringe problems that can be resolved with further refining, so I can't pretend the Avadon franchise has no potential. Rather, I can only hope the next title has more complexity and less hand-holding. With that being said, the extent of the game's accessibility, and the way it paces the introduction to the setting while taking a big step forward in the graphical department, makes this one of the easier Spiderweb games to introduce to newcomers. &nbsp;And that was probably the exact intention.</p>
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<p>The full Review is quite detailed and you can <a href="http://www.gamebanshee.com/reviews/102789-avadon-the-black-fortress.html">read all of it here</a>.</p>
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<p><em>Thanks Brother None!</em></p>
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[Excidium]

Good review, as always.

 

[Jaesun]

Yeah great review. I was curious as to his opinion on this game.

 

[commie]

What? No RAEG???

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

the franchise

What the fuck, is it an article for investors considering investing in the Spiderweb Software or obtaining a license for making Avadon stuff or something like that? What the fuck is this word doing in a fucking game review?

 

[Sitra Achara]

A good review.

I would add:

• Walking around takes too much time.
• Some optional "boss" encounters are damn tough.
• Junkbag - a very welcome UI improvement.

 

[Naked Ninja]

Good review BN, fair points all. Especially how the combat system design encourages the player to make trash fights boring for themselves. That kind of unintentional consequence of something that seems good on paper can be hard for a developer to see.

 

[Brother None]

I wonder if Vogel will agree with me now, NN. Last time I brought it up he wasn't happy. But I didn't go in as much detail either, so who knows....

What the fuck, is it an article for investors considering investing in the Spiderweb Software or obtaining a license for making Avadon stuff or something like that?

I could've called it a series too, if that rages you less. Not sure what there is to rage about here. It's an appropriate term.

Junkbag - a very welcome UI improvement.

I had it in an earlier draft which was getting too long, it didn't go well in the flow of the review. It is a nice UI improvement though.

 

[korenzel]

A very good review, as usual from Gamebanshee.

However, I found some points surprising.

and the locations chosen to do so, are brilliantly set up to guide you so that major events in the storyline may still surprise you, but always make sense.

Really? I can't remember any event I couldn't foretell a mile away. The game uses (abuses?) foreshadowing to an extent in which there really isn't any surprise anymore. Be that the multiple reference to you destroying some country, or some overt war preparation from a character seeking peace...

This encourages careful players like myself to drag out trash combat, consisting of nothing more than you clicking on enemies to chip down their HP.

Can't say I agree with that. As it is pointed out, skills use little vitality and the game is generous with potions and restorative spots during long dungeons. I, for one, used skills constantly to make trash mobs encounters faster, and never ran out of vitality. There's really no point in making the experience more painful, unless one is of the hoarder type and refuses to use the slightest amount of consumable or non regenerative pool, "just in case".

The decision not to regenerate vitality only serves a purpose if it leads to a difficult long-term battle against attrition, rather than encourage the player to keep trash combat as boring as he/she can.

Again, Vogel could have made vitality regenerate and it wouldn't have made much difference. It's very rarely a limiting factor for skill usage, and a far smaller one than skill associated cooldowns.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

It's an appropriate term.

In business context, yes. When talking about games themselves, not. It's like let's say saying that you're going to a Pizza Hut franchise for a dinner. And you're eating a Super Supreme i.p. there.

Also, it's in the spirit of the decline and degradation of gaming itself. We used to have series of games, game worlds and game settings. Now we have franchises and i.p.
Business thinking pollutes not only the game design but now also the mentality of gamers and journalists.

 

[Mangoose]

This encourages careful players like myself to drag out trash combat, consisting of nothing more than you clicking on enemies to chip down their HP.

Can't say I agree with that. As it is pointed out, skills use little vitality and the game is generous with potions and restorative spots during long dungeons. I, for one, used skills constantly to make trash mobs encounters faster, and never ran out of vitality. There's really no point in making the experience more painful, unless one is of the hoarder type and refuses to use the slightest amount of consumable or non regenerative pool, "just in case".

The decision not to regenerate vitality only serves a purpose if it leads to a difficult long-term battle against attrition, rather than encourage the player to keep trash combat as boring as he/she can.

Again, Vogel could have made vitality regenerate and it wouldn't have made much difference. It's very rarely a limiting factor for skill usage, and a far smaller one than skill associated cooldowns.

What? You're actually trying to make a legitimate argument?

The right thing to do is just to say that BN has only played 2 hours and thus obviously wrong about the vitality issue.

 

[Brother None]

Again, Vogel could have made vitality regenerate and it wouldn't have made much difference. It's very rarely a limiting factor for skill usage, and a far smaller one than skill associated cooldowns.

Then explain to me what the purpose of not regenerating vitality is? When any game resource is not restored automatically, its purpose can really only be to add to the challenge by making it into a resource management strategy. By your and Vogel's claims, that is not necessary for this. Then what does it add to gameplay?

What's more, since you don't need it for trash mobs, you are encouraging players not to use it for trashmobs. Yes, players can realize there's plenty of VI to go around and just waste it, but hoarders do exist, especially amongst old-school RPG gamers who've learned their lessons about squandering resources.

This is functionally similar to the problem of modern RPGs that don't have HP regeneration but throw so many healing items at you they just as well might have. What's the point?

Also, it's in the spirit of the decline and degradation of gaming itself. We used to have series of games, game worlds and game settings. Now we have franchises and i.p.
Business thinking pollutes not only the game design but now also the mentality of gamers and journalists.

I think you're taking a negligible issue way too seriously but sure, you have a point.

 

[korenzel]

Then explain to me what the purpose of not regenerating vitality is? When any game resource is not restored automatically, its purpose can really only be to add to the challenge by making it into a resource management strategy. By your and Vogel's claims, that is not necessary for this. Then what does it add to gameplay?

What's more, since you don't need it for trash mobs, you are encouraging players not to use it for trashmobs. Yes, players can realize there's plenty of VI to go around and just waste it, but hoarders do exist, especially amongst old-school RPG gamers who've learned their lessons about squandering resources.

This is functionally similar to the problem of modern RPGs that don't have HP regeneration but throw so many healing items at you they just as well might have. What's the point?

The way I see it, in Avadon, Vitality has no point. You never run out or have plenty of ways to restore it. It's never a resource that needs to be managed, like mana or health can be in other RPGs. Vogel could just as well have removed it and it wouldn't make the game any different.

As it stands, it's either a failed attempt at a new restrictive system or the leftover of a previous one. It does not add or remove anything to the gameplay. Skills use is restricted by cooldowns first and foremost. In Avernum 6, battle disciplines used cooldowns and spells used mana. That made playing warrior or mage types different, and was interesting. Merging the two methods seems redundant, especially as one way is much more prominent than the other.

There's a difference between managing resources and just hoarding them for the sake of it. When a player completes the first few dungeons with 90% vitality left, he/she might get the hint that the game is designed so that full use of skills without restraints is possible, and I'd say even encouraged. The game explicitly mentions when rest or vitality may be a issue, and you can be careful then.

 

[Brother None]

Well then you essentially agree with my analysis that it is problematic. It's just that your particular experience with it was different because you do not share my (admittedly pretty extreme) hoarder instinct.

But the fact is that the core system is at best useless and at worst annoying. User experience may vary, but that doesn't change the core problem.

 

[OSK]

with a big BioWare pap smeared over it

wat

 

[Brother None]

with a big BioWare pap smeared over it

wat

wat? It's a totally clever joke.

 

[Orgasm]

with a big BioWare pap smeared over it

wat

wat? It's a totally clever joke.

And this man is getting payed for it. Next up in line are Spiderturd and Vogelscheiße.

 

[korenzel]

Well then you essentially agree with my analysis that it is problematic. It's just that your particular experience with it was different because you do not share my (admittedly pretty extreme) hoarder instinct.

But the fact is that the core system is at best useless and at worst annoying. User experience may vary, but that doesn't change the core problem.

It is problematic, no argument about that. Your review lead me to believe you would prefer the system to be more lenient, which would be the wrong way to fix it, at least in my opinion. It really needs to have more actual (rather than psychological) impact on skill use, or be moved out of the system altogether.

 

[Brother None]

And this man is getting payed for it. Next up in line are Spiderturd and Vogelscheiße.

But, the joke is about the substance of BioWare's formula, not Spiderweb's. The joke's the use of the word pap, not the comparison to BioWare, which is just factual...

...I think I fail to see what the confusion is.

Your review lead me to believe you would prefer the system to be more lenient, which would be the wrong way to fix it, at least in my opinion.

Really? How? I clearly state what I *think* a limited-resource system should do, as in provide a real challenge. I loathe games that offer fake challenges or situations, which is more and more common these days.

 

[korenzel]

Really? How? I clearly state what I *think* a limited-resource system should do, as in provide a real challenge. I loathe games that offer fake challenges or situations, which is more and more common these days.

Half of the section dedicated to combat is used to explain that HP are expendable while vitality is precious and should be conserved, encouraging players not to use skills during trash fights and making them intentionally longer and more boring than they should be. Vitality costs were then, in essence, preventing you from using skills most of the time.

This is fixed by either removing Vitality or making it matter less in the decision to use skills or not, which is the opposite of what needs to be done.

 

[Brother None]

This is fixed by either removing Vitality or making it matter less in the decision to use skills or not.

From the review: "The decision not to regenerate vitality only serves a purpose if it leads to a difficult long-term battle against attrition, rather than encourage the player to keep trash combat as boring as he/she can."

That's the alternatives. The system as it is doesn't serve a function, so you either remove it (by removing or regenerating vitality), which I did not suggest, or you actually make it so the system adds another challenge, which is what I suggested in the last sentence of the bit on combat. The former is very casual, which I stated I do not prefer, but at least it's honest and doesn't add a system with no purpose. The latter has my preference, as clearly stated in the review and again here.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

The obvious thing would be replacing health regeneration with vitality regeneration.

 

[Linden]

Vitality regeneration = health regeneration. Because of healing spells.

 

[Mangoose]

Why don't we just regenerate everything?

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

All those bars, mana bar, health bar, adrenaline bar, vitaility bar, endurance bar and so on merely serve to restrict the player from doing things. Do we really want to restrict the player from doing things? Where's the fun in that? We need to get rid of those bars.

What I've found is that all of those bars actually did something else, so a fan might say, “You're removing my bars!” and my answer is “Which ones do you want?” They all trickle down to something else so we just have to get rid of that. In the future when you cast something you just press a button. Want to cast two spells? Press 2 buttons. No mana bar required. We don't need no bars anymore because we're about to enter a new age of gaming. An age without bars.