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Development Info Warhorse Studios' Dan Vavra on Choosing Your RPG Engine

Crooked Bee

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Tags: Dan Vávra; Kingdom Come: Deliverance; Warhorse Studios

As you may know, Warhorse Studios is currently working on an undiscloded open world RPG title. In his latest blog post, WS' creative director Dan Vavra talks about the process of choosing an engine for the game.

This whole approach was necessary at the time, but very ineffective. It was as if filmmakers had to develop cameras and film stock each time they wanted to shoot a movie. You spent several years working on a tech that you would then use on one or two games before it became obsolete. I dreamed about a time when there would be a powerful enough 3rd party technology we could license affordably and make our games without wasting time reinventing the wheel each time we started a new project. A few years ago it wasn’t possible as most of the stuff you could buy had its limits and was very expensive. Today, that time is past.

There is no need to develop your own tech anymore. With modern commercial engines, you can create almost anything. Technology still has its limits, but today even free engines that can run in web browsers or on tablets have so many features we could only dream about a few years ago. It’s not the tech that is slowing our imagination anymore; almost anything is possible if you are clever enough. The technology also became so complicated that the possibility that you would be able to create in-house, something as advanced as Unreal or Cryengine and do it more cost effective than their licensing fee, is almost zero.

[...] We were looking for a complete package which included engine with good tools, especially for the terrain editing and scripting, AI, some pretty lighting and a sophisticated animation system. Some engines offer all of this in one package (Cryengine) and some rely on 3rd party solutions (Havok Vision). Both approaches have advantages and disadvantages. In the first example, you have everything under one roof for one price, but you might end up paying for something you don’t need. You also don’t have the choice to select the component that suits your game best if you’re not happy with the built-in one. In the second example, the initial price is lower and there is much more choice, but when you need everything anyway you may end up with a higher price, than the one for the complete package and lots of solutions from various providers may not work as well together. Even then there is a possibility that the option to choose different components to your liking will be more important than the final price.

There are also some risks. Smaller companies might offer great solutions at even greater prices, but since the games industry is quite a risky business you must take into account the possibility that they will go out of business and trust me, it sucks when you're working on a game for several years and the technology provider goes bankrupt, or stops supporting its product one year before release. I’ve seen it happen once and it really is bad.​

The last bit directly concerns the likes of Wasteland 2 if they go for something like the Unigine engine, which makes the write-up doubly interesting.

This newsitem is brought to you by Marquess Cornwallis!
 

Licaon_Kter

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so like yeah the foretelling prophecy... "they're a small team, they might not exist in a year let's not buy their tech... a year passes, nobody buys their tech... they die. told you soooo!!!!"

using this logic and no UE/CryEngine should exist anyway, yes, having a game as a running proof helps, OilRush that is, and there are some other, but looks like their marketing sucks or somethin'

BTW when should BrianFar&Co announce the engine of choice for W2? or did I miss it already?
 

mikaelis

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WTF are you bitching about guys? They selected CryEngine long time ago! They are now just giving some sort of reasoning behind! I am sure they alrerady have some sort of prototype to show to the publishers, but anyway, what is your point? Nobody is saying they are trying to attract publishers' jewgold with some concept arts and sketches except of you!

And it is not like his small studio would not be able to create their own engine. It is just that in THEIR case it is inefficient! And he fucking knows better than YOU if he has some skilled coders on board to create the engine from scratch!

If it is suited or not (Cryengine), I have no idea. Probably it is suited to some degree as Vavra and co. are not some fucking newbies and should know what they are doing! And if they want to make first person action RPG, why not to make first person perspective work right (like in core FPS) and have RPG layer on top of that? Oh wait...., because we have tousands of properly made RPGs in first person perspective? RRIIIGGGHHHTTTT.....
 

Burning Bridges

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Oh wel, whatever. With kickstarter around I suspect or at least hope this kind of "RPG" is going to disappear, aside from whatever trash bethesda shits out every other year.

EDIT: took my blood pressure medicine. Now I feel better.

Perhaps you should sometimes actually think before you post. And read Daniels the blog at: http://warhorsestudios.cz/index.php?page=blog&lang=en
This is by no means a type of project I want to see die. Besides, Daniel Vavra is an übermensch who posts personally on the Codex and he looks like Reinhold Messner:

14946.jpg


Without first hand knowledge neither you nor I can know if the engine is suitable for a RPG or not. But the logic: "engine made for fps = can only be used for a fps" strikes me as extremely noobish. Think of VtMB.

They already showed that the engine can create marvellous outdoor graphics, and I would assume they're going to program the RPG features themselves.

To be honest I am much more concerned about this "miracle" financier, who invests enough money for an AAA+ but does not interfer in the creative vision. Sounds almost like a rare, indie AAA+ to me.
But if I tell you my feeling, in the unlikely (but not impossible) event this game is going to be finished, it is going to rock.

"Mafia"esque RPG in the Hussite period, running on Crysis engine? Man, this give me a massive hard on.
 

Burning Bridges

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WTF are you bitching about guys? They selected CryEngine long time ago! They are now just giving some sort of reasoning behind! I am sure they alrerady have some sort of prototype to show to the publishers, but anyway, what is your point? Nobody is saying they are trying to attract publishers' jewgold with some concept arts and sketches except of you!

And it is not like his small studio would not be able to create their own engine. It is just that in THEIR case it is inefficient! And he fucking knows better than YOU if he has some skilled coders on board to create the engine from scratch!

If it is suited or not (Cryengine), I have no idea. Probably it is suited to some degree as Vavra and co. are not some fucking newbies and should know what they are doing! And if they want to make first person action RPG, why not to make first person perspective work right (like in core FPS) and have RPG layer on top of that? Oh wait...., because we have tousands of properly made RPGs in first person perspective? RRIIIGGGHHHTTTT.....

This. I also think Daniel just explained it pretty well himself why they chose an available engine. Now there's really no point bitching about it.
 

Menckenstein

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Man chooses to build house with quality wood from lumber supply place B.

"WTF @ THIS HOUSE, GONNA BE SHIT, DECLINE DECLINE."

[time passes, house is framed]

"Wow this looks great I can't wait!"
 

Burning Bridges

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If you have experience with the Crysis engine, I will not argue :hug:

I still think DV will know what he is doing. Think of Mafia, and the many other games he made.
 

Burning Bridges

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Well if you mean by full source, that they are going to get the source code of Crysis, I thought that was a given. Otherwise they would only be making a mod, and I'm sure they want to program their own game mechanics.

Of course I would make some concessions that by RPG they mean something else than we do, more something like Stalker with stats. If it looks and feels like their previous games + some RPG elements it would still be something worth to look out for, I except something like VtmB but more open world. They have great writing skills, great graphic skills, DV is a bro, and they are full indie, so why not be optimistic?

Not knowing exactly what you mean with heart attack pills, but apart from the hot temper I think you are doing a good job. I would advocate Drocon gets relieved of that ridiculous avatar and people stop treating him like a punching ball. Fucking yellow bastards.
 
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I don't doubt he knows what he's doing. My point was rather that the thing he's doing is probably not going to seem like an RPG to me personally.

But there's also the caveat with full source he can add in his own tools so it becomes a different story. So he could technically wind up remaking TOEE for this RPG but my instinct is to say that won't be the case.
Daniel.Vavra said:
Because we licensed the technology it doesn’t follow that we don’t need programmers. We have a very strong programming team, with most of our guys having worked on proprietary technology in the past, but thanks to licensing, they can now concentrate on the stuff that will make our game special – our combat system, unique controls, our very complicated RPG system and the whole world simulation. It’s better to concentrate on the stuff no one has done before, than on the shaders that everyone can do.
Emphasis mine. Now this could of course mean a lot of different things in practice, but it would perhaps be only prudent to wait until we learn more about the said RPG system before we judge it. Anyway, the above and all the other context and explanations given in the blog post make your going all HULK SMASH semi-incoherent over their choice of engine look a little exaggerated, to say the least. You could say that the whole point of the text is more or less that they want to focus on creating their own tools and systems (rather than the basic engine functionality).
 
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This article is making me rage on a couple levels. (I know, right? Big surprise)

First off cryengine is probably the least suited engine to make anything but a crysis mod ever made. This game is bound to be even more of a first person shooter for people who hate first person shooters than "games" like oblivion and mass effect.

Second, it just shows again how much everything is driven by publishers. So you don't even think about the engines or tools until you get the publisher bling? Even bioware has enough craftsmanship to actually work on a game and get some kind of prototype going, it didn't just immediately whore itself out and then do the game development part as an afterthought.

Plus what the guy above me said, but that is partially due to the other issues. I mean if you wait til the last minute to even choose an engine of course your options are limited. Don't they even have full time programmers?

Oh wel, whatever. With kickstarter around I suspect or at least hope this kind of "RPG" is going to disappear, aside from whatever trash bethesda shits out every other year.

EDIT: took my blood pressure medicine. Now I feel better.

What annoys me is clueless morons with zero understanding of what a game engine is, what it can and can't do whose only illinformed opinion on the subject is the one or two games released on that engine, with all of their flaws. Followed by the same retarded mentality that calls any engine great the moment someone throws in a few cheap shinies into a scene and the retard in question's favourite camera type.

Incidentally, this type of mentality often stems from something like this: "I downloaded the sdk, masturbating to my fantasy of making an epic rpg but then there were lots of buttons and all I could do was to make a level and run around in it in first person. 'nuff said, it sucks for anything other than a FPS"

Some people are still waiting for that magic sdk that will make a game for them where they only need to push a few buttons. "Where's the TB Combat Engine button?"
 
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This article is making me rage on a couple levels. (I know, right? Big surprise)

First off cryengine is probably the least suited engine to make anything but a crysis mod ever made. This game is bound to be even more of a first person shooter for people who hate first person shooters than "games" like oblivion and mass effect.

Second, it just shows again how much everything is driven by publishers. So you don't even think about the engines or tools until you get the publisher bling? Even bioware has enough craftsmanship to actually work on a game and get some kind of prototype going, it didn't just immediately whore itself out and then do the game development part as an afterthought.

Plus what the guy above me said, but that is partially due to the other issues. I mean if you wait til the last minute to even choose an engine of course your options are limited. Don't they even have full time programmers?

Oh wel, whatever. With kickstarter around I suspect or at least hope this kind of "RPG" is going to disappear, aside from whatever trash bethesda shits out every other year.

EDIT: took my blood pressure medicine. Now I feel better.

What annoys me is clueless morons with zero understanding of what a game engine is, what it can and can't do whose only illinformed opinion on the subject is the one or two games released on that engine, with all of their flaws. Followed by the same retarded mentality that calls any engine great the moment someone throws in a few cheap shinies into a scene and the retard in question's favourite camera type.

Incidentally, this type of mentality often stems from something like this: "I downloaded the sdk, masturbating to my fantasy of making an epic rpg but then there were lots of buttons and all I could do was to make a level and run around in it in first person. 'nuff said, it sucks for anything other than a FPS"

Some people are still waiting for that magic sdk that will make a game for them where they only need to push a few buttons. "Where's the TB Combat Engine button?"

I'd say at least 50% of the people who talk about engines think that camera and combat style are features of the engine. It's the only explanation I can think of for people assuming that an engine must be 'good for crpgs' because they've seen a game where it's used for an iso perspective, and that an engine is 'a FPS engine' because they've seen games on it where the camera is fixed for first person. Or the poor fellows who try to use the Fallout engine for their own project - the only reasoning I can see for that would be to equate the gameplay/camera with the engine itself. About the only time I ever see discussions of engines ever go into stuff like memory usage, availability of tools/support or modifiability is in developer blogs.
 

CreamyBlood

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I don't understand why it isn't a good choice if it does what they want. It's a 3D engine, they don't have to spend time building their own from scratch, don't have to worry about pretty lighting, water, particles, shaders and everything else.

They have experienced programmers that have built their own engines from scratch and don't want to do that this time so they can focus on making the game. Of course they'll have to code all of the RPG elements and this allows them to focus on that. Cryengine already makes it easy to create the world and they don't have to waste time on that anymore.

It's not like they're getting a simple SDK to make levels like public modders get for free.

If they're happy with the tools, then great. They can focus on the monumental task of programming an RPG and not worry so much about the details of making a 3D engine from scratch. Why re-invent the wheel for the ten millionth time when a state-of-the-art 3D engine is already available for a lot less than what it would cost to roll their own?
 
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And some other fun stuff for other "FPS Engines"














R00FLES!

You will, naturally, see a LOT of people bitching about any game engine in modding communities because 19 out of 20 people in any modding community is a complete retard who think that all it takes to make a game is to throw together a bunch of models and textures into a level and write a few scripts.
 

CreamyBlood

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Don't mind Drocon, he's a 14 yo moron.

I see what you mean, I hope he's only 14 although that insults many 12 year olds.

Drocon said:
Look at that sweet HUD, awesome inventroy screens and stat screens, oh wait NM. None of them has even a HUD at all, that's peculiar for a FPS let alone an RPG.

You don't see a HUD on any of those videos?
 

commie

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Thanks for posting great examples of why cryengine sucks for an RPG, bro :roll:

Look at that sweet HUD, awesome inventroy screens and stat screens, oh wait NM. None of them has even a HUD at all, that's peculiar for a FPS let alone an RPG.

Gothic doesn't have a HUD either, neither does Anachronox and that was made on GASP! the Quake 2 FPS engine!...:M
 
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I want to believe that he's a troll. No Codexer should be this stupid and nobody this stupid should be allowed on the Codex.

Especially because only two of those mods lack a hud and that's because they are puzzle adventure mods that don't need one. Not that huds have any relevance to the subject.
 

CreamyBlood

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Anyways, an aRPG with the Crysis3 engine will undoubtedly look great. Here's hoping they put some challenge and fun into it. The pretty stuff is easy these days from a technical standpoint (models and textures take tonnes of time and work), the substance is the tough part. I think PB and maybe Larien are the only ones who try anymore in this particular genre. (Assuming they're going for a First Person 3D type of aRPG).
 

EG

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So . . . what is an ideal engine for something like Fallout 1? Bestow upon me your knowledges.
 

commie

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Well I learned something today:

A Role Playing game is something that lets you play a role has a HUD!
 

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