Do dialogue trees suck?

[Wyrmlord]

Well of course not, but I need a sensational topic title.

Seeing how dialogue trees have become so common in all these years, I wonder if a little shift is needed. I honestly don't believe in change for the sake of change, but here's what I think.

Dialogue trees are cool when they are done well. In Torment, it was fun talking to Ignus, who was so borderline insane that if you didn't say the right thing, he would get hostile and attack you. The same for Vhailor. Or when Ravel asks you about her appearance, you have the difficult choice of choosing to flatter her, avoid the question, or be honest. (And interestingly, you are rewarded for being honest.)

But then, there are times when dialogue trees can be annoying. Such as when you are simply asking for information, you have to go through the long process of trying out each single branch of information. It is much easier to simply choose or type the required keyword, then go through those series of clicks. But what is most annoying about them is when they loop over or when you get the exact same response to a different dialogue choice. I found talking to Atris in her academy in KotOR 2 to be a really tedious experience, because something you say later on caused her to repeat what she said much earlier, and sometimes even led back to that earlier part of the conversation. And it was exactly the same with talking to the Star Map in Kashyyk in KotOR 1.

And apart from that, when a game's focus is not on dialogue, then it does not need dialogue trees. This is why I felt they were rather pointless in Icewind Dale.

So I am thinking: What Obsidian is doing with Alpha Protocol - maybe it's the right thing to do?

 

[Dementia Praecox]

Dialogue Trees with fully voiced NPCs get tedious fast. Especially if they are of the data mining-kind. Looping is infinitely more annoying with voice overs and ironically enough way more IMMURSHUN-breaking. I had some points on this topic a while back. My rapid fanboyism have gotten some dents since then, but I still think the dialogue system has potential.

And apart from that, when a game's focus is not on dialogue, then it does not need dialogue trees. This is why I felt they were rather pointless in Icewind Dale.

You have the wrong focus. A choice without consequence (which was the case with most of IW's dialogue) is pointless. That's not limited to dialogue as a game mechanic or RPGs as a genre.

 

[Xor]

Dialog trees are tricky. In order to be well done, there needs to be a lot of dialog, it needs to be well-written, and different dialog options need to lead to different consequences.

Voiced dialog is a mixed bag. On one hand, it can make the character more memorable. Take Kreia, for instance. Her voiceacting is superb, and she has a lot of dialog.
On the other hand, poor voice acting (ToEE) can ruin the experience entirely. And I usually play with sound turned off while listening to music, so I don't hear the voice actors anyway.

Still, since voiced dialog is so popular now, I think it's pretty much here to stay in mainstream games.

 

[Thrasher]

I find them tedious. There's got to be a better way.

Morrowind wiki-style was less tedious but full of crappy repeated info and was hard to find new info.

 

[elander_]

Real-time action dialog.

 

[AzraelCC]

Dialog trees should be reserved for major characters furthering plot points. They would be the equivalent of a combat encounter or a puzzle, but skills relating to diplomacy (Bluffing, intimidating, seducing, etc) determining the consequence of the "encounter." For example, the dialog with a bandit leader could go:

Bandit: You have to be out of your mind to enter our hideout. Any last words?

You:
A) Wait, I want to join your group! Allow me to prove myself (quest trigger)
B) I've been sent by your rivals to broker a deal (Bluff)
C) You think you scare me? You should ask the leader of the Scarlet Daggers--what's left of him, rather (Intimidate, bonus if you have a scarlet dagger item)
D) What if I give you a blowjob? (Seduce, major penalty if you're a male character)

This system succeeds if you are not allowed to take back what you've said, making the tension as high as that of a combat encounter or puzzle. Not that escaping death is the only possiblity--goals for major diplomatic conversations can range from getting info to manipulating agroup to kill your enemy.

The rest of the world's NPCs could just ahve floatovers and say random bits concerning the world and occasioal clues to the game.

 

[Xor]

So, what, all minor characters should just have floaters like "Move along"?

 

[Thrasher]

The part I hate is going through dialog trees just to make sure you've received all the important information, backtracking etc. to explore the whole tree.

I'd prefer if it were presented differently... how?

Irreversible tree paths for plot/quest choices is OK.

 

[shihonage]

The part I hate is going through dialog trees just to make sure you've received all the important information, backtracking etc. to explore the whole tree.

I'd prefer if it were presented differently... how?

IMO proper exposure should work like one in a good movie. A movie that tries to explain things to you, the viewer = INSTANT FAIL. Same goes for games.

Wrong approach:
"Welcome stranger to our glorious village. What would you like to know ?"
blah1
blah2
Horned Beast (click)

"Ah, the evil Horned Beast has been descending from the mountains on our village, eating our children, and most importantly, our cattle !"

Right approach #1
As player passes by, a character says to another via overhead text: "Horned Beast took another goat today."

Right approach #2:
As player walks through the village, a Horned Beast descends from the mountain, eats some children and goats, steps on a bakery, laughs at all the arrows stuck in the folds of its stomach, and waddles away.

 

[Thrasher]

How about when a player talks directly to an NPC ,and asks questions?

It would be better if the whole tree were iconically presented, perhaps hierarchically (with hide/show buttons), rather than just where you are in the tree.

That way the player can jump to where he wishes, rather than going up and down the tree step by step.

Highlight nodes exposed but not yet asked. Only expose nodes where questioning has already led.

The standard (but old and crickety) text dialogue trees need a revamp.

 

[shihonage]

How about when a player talks directly to an NPC ,and asks questions?

It would be better if the whole tree were iconically presented, perhaps hierarchically (with hide/show buttons), rather than just where you are in the tree.

That way the player can jump to where he wishes, rather than going up and down the tree step by step.

Highlight nodes exposed but not yet asked. Only expose nodes where questioning has already led.

The standard (but old and crickety) text dialogue trees need a revamp.

That would kinda make the game more like a software tool, removing any illusion of having a continuous conversation with a character. It would remove suspense of disbelief even worse than having to rummage through a dialogue tree in search of some stupid hint.

 

[Thrasher]

I don't believe games are real, and don't need to be reminded in tedious repetitive conversation trees. Single stepping up and down the tree ruins it for me.

Suggest a "realistic" way to ask specific questions without doing so.

How about a natural language interface? Or just no hierarchy, totally flat, no tree.

I prefer the latter, with ways to hide and show groups of realted topics.

The press 1 or 2 or 3 interface is so antiquated.

 

[denizsi]

Right approach #3

An optional travel map for when you don't want to walk back and forth between all the places for the umpteenth time, including within towns, and a "common talk" tab in there, listing subjects (that open summaries) everytime you complete/finish a considerable amount of travel distance on travel map.

Perhaps with an option for quick travel for faster navigation without receiving such subjects.

Just a little less abstracted way of a general "ask around" option, like it will be in AoD (if memory serves me well and it didn't change).

 

[shihonage]

I don't believe games are real, and don't need to be reminded in tedious repetitive conversation trees. Single stepping up and down the tree ruins it for me.

Suggest a "realistic" way to ask specific questions without doing so.

As I said earlier... asking the "lore" questions is a bad mechanic in principle and should be avoided completely, IMO.

You can't escape meaningful dialogue choices, nor would anyone want to skip through those. It's hunting for information up and down the dialogue trees that we all hate, and that should just be eliminated by design. It shouldn't be a visible tree, it shouldn't be dialogue, it SHOULDN'T EXIST.

The exposition should be a part of everything, evenly spread. It shouldn't be lying in a database waiting to be "asked" about.

The traditional methods are too wordy, anyway. Why have a dialogue which says "Oh, those Raiders ! They are bad people, and they have guns and they rape our women and sometimes men !", when you can just have people in town mention it in passing, as if it is a part of their everyday life ?

"Doc, we're out of stimpaks again."
"Fuckin' Raiders".

Voila. Feeding-player-information-through-an-IV-syndrome avoided.

Right approach #3

An optional travel map for when you don't want to walk back and forth between all the places for the umpteenth time, including within towns, and a "common talk" tab in there, listing subjects (that open summaries) everytime you complete/finish a considerable amount of travel distance on travel map.

This reminds me, it's related to above:

Right approach #4

A character journal. If you can't figure out how to distribute the lore without forcing it down the player's throat, just dump all that information into the journal when he enters the city for the first time.

If you already know it, you don't have to read it. If you don't know it, its all there in one chunk.

 

[Thrasher]

Well some of the lore needs to be revealed gradually, requiring player action to get it, at least for a sense of mystery, or plot development. Sometimes from people, sometimes from observing or overhearing, sometimes from reading.

Getting it all at once at level load would be oversimplified. But I like the idea of it all being in a journal.

Morrowind has that but it's a poorly organized list of stuff, no hierarchy. There should be a better organization. Witcher had again a flat structure.

 

[AzraelCC]

The journal idea is great. It may even be tied to a skill, much in the same way that D&D has Knowledge (Geography) or Knowledge (Local) to check just how much you know about an area if you are investigating on something. So a stupid player may know jack shit about an area, an average player would know what everyone else knows but a character skilled in the lore may know of some special areas or problems that could become quests.

I guess the focus on 'eye-candy' and 'a picture can paint a thousand words' mentality has relegated text as a clunky, obsolete tool in presenting the game world, hence such an elegant way of presenting information hasn't been implemented.

When I tried designing an RPG, I thought of making exchange of dialogs in games as a card mini game--where a diplomat class would have cards of various diplomatic moves for his enemy. Bluffs, seductions, insights, body language would be used, and certain memberships in powerful organizations could give you more threats to intimidate your opponent with. The problem here is that while it's an abstraction of dialog to make it as compelling as combat, there isn't an actual conversation being made, which is what makes dialog unique and fun. Humor and strong emotions don't appear.

Perhaps this could be used only for trying a diplomatic approach with hostile, intelligent enemies?

 

[Chefe]

Dialog trees have never been done right in any RPG. They all end up being a quest trigger amongst a loop of useless and boring information. It's a prettied up version of Morrowind's wiki speech. They lend themselves to "grinding" for information (as in, clicking on every topic except the obvious one you know will lead to the quest so you can get all the extras). Then, of course, there's the detour loops that bring you all the way the fuck around just to get to the same message you would have gotten if you had chosen choice C instead of B. This last part is solely due to the laziness of the developers who can't be bothered to write anything differently.

As for general information from townsfolk, most people expect NPCs to give them quests, so you end up running around and clicking on everybody in the chance they have some quest or provide location markers on your map. Again, this is due to lazy developers who can't be bothered to write something slightly different for each NPC.

"What's the deal with airplane peanuts?"

Noble: "They are a delicious snack, old boy. A salty treat to enjoy while you traverse the sky."

Nigger: "They some good shit, dawg! Nice 'n salty while yo' funny ass is flyin' around."

See? That's not hard.

This is what the main draw of American Hare will be, I believe. A totally new dialog tree system that feels natural and eliminates the classic dialog grinding. Each dialog choice will have a different response, even if it's only visual.