Good guns in Jagged Alliance 2 1.13 patch?

[butthurt]

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[Kaiden]

Then don't interrupt our conversation.

 

[The_scorpion]

yeah, i guess it is easy to misread my postings. The Mix of ja2 specific insider knowlegde with lacking language skills and convolutet syntax (sorry, i have a "deformation professionelle") makes it hard to decypher. So hard that most people just guess what was meant and land way off the mark. Or they just skip my points as a whole. (often still continuing the debate based on their guesses on what i could be saying)

at least you figured the part that Khor got wrong so there's a 50 percent intelligibility ratio... not that bad

Personally i think the reason for khor to use old revisions migth be because they require less updating of xml's. Think of it, Khor has worked those xml's that he uses up from very ancient ones. The xml editor only works with very latest stuff and can't change the structure.

More reasons can be additional files like graphics, for example one late release requires something like "loadscreens/titletext_mp" to even start up. Khor uses lots of custom content, so he can't use SVN to update those vital files. (This is one of the reasons why long ago i was insisting on slightly more detailed release notes)

Trying to catch up with all of these things leaves little time and room for the actual modding. Let alone to find workarounds to all the bugs and issues


When it comes to latest versions, i'd like to drop a "critical mass" comment. The latest versions are stuffed with content. Be it just GFX, be it new xml's or new xml structures, be it files required to start up the game (mercstartinggear.xml, titletext_mp.sti, etc.)

Neither the xml editor nor manual editing allow to cut alot of unneded content fast and easily. So whatever change that has a certain deptht is made requires a huge effort just to get started. Especially NIV is a big complex of necessary files and graphics (to run the game) that are completely uselesss to the modmaker.

Remeber my suggestion from yesteryear to have a slim, cut-down version for modmakers that only uses modding-relevant, tested, stable features? That was like years before SMP was "founded".

It's kind of reassuring to me that most of those suggestions become very fashionale around 2 years after i suggest them, but it's also kinda sad.


speaking about ja2005, there's some incredibly cool stuff in there, some of the things are really thought through well and designed in a sensible and elegant way, i like it a lot.

I ported RR to it, but with all speech sounds as .wav, it's now become like over one gigabyte in filesize, so i guess i won't publish it. But it's what i play and where i continue to add content to RR.

 

[Kaiden]

Actually you write much better than half the people that post on these forums and over at the pit. I catch the majority of it, of course when I don't and I'm already pissed I fly off in the wrong direction.

Anyway, you bring up a valid point, especially considering that I'll be using 1.13 as a basis for my mod.

Would it make it significantly easier if I stuck all of my stuff in the \Data folder, and then created some bare-bones XML's required in the \Data-1.13 folder? Then those mostly empty files would be required for your campaign, but all the crap that currently goes into the \Data-1.13 folder would be in \Data and already available for anyone who has downloaded my mod.

Vanilla would pretty much be out the window at that point though.

 

[Khor1255]

What scorpion said about the modding relevant content in the 687 is a big part of the reason I think this is a better one not to 'freeze in time' but to build a little onto and of course fix whatever bugs come are present.

Another huge part of the reason I prefer pre 2085 builds is there is not the radical change to soldiertype and (I believe) item type that would make any maps made or even updated with the newer versions completely unusable for versions that predated the 2085. I heard more talk of farther breaking things or rather removing compatibility with the earlier versions so I know for certain what the '1.13 team' and me want are two radically different things.

Again, I do not trust them or their work and it's not just because of the complete lack of concern for moddability. We have seen new types of bugs with these later versions I have never heard of and comming from several different ( but essentially all the same map placement type) directions.

I heard scorpion years ago but I still thought there were very cool externalizations and especially mapping features left to do before we 'locked down' a version. I was essentially arguing with him based on the same reasons the current team are arguing with me now. Namely because I thought he meant to stop development completely. I must have misunderstood him.
What I would like to see is development and testing remain on the latest features but also to have a separate stable build we can trust ( with less bugs and a few upgrades of course ) to do the majority of our work . That is two different versions with one basically just developed and left static for who knows how long while the other version changes as often as they'd like.

What would happen under this system is modders still developing on the 1.13, some of us porting over to the latest versions at our leisure but simultaneously providing comparison bug reports and incentive to eventually advance the SMP to accept some of the changes of the latest versions.

Who knows? Eventually we might even see the new versions found to be free of any serious issue that affects mid and late game mods or whatever thus proving our apprehensions largely unfounded. I do not believe this will happen but only good things can come from a version that is both stable and usable with any version of Ja2.

You might say that any map made with a 1.13 build has problems with vanilla and certainly UB portability but these are almost entirely map placed item issues. As a matter of fact I know of no other incompatibility unless you want to call not having 1.13 a compatibility issue. But any version made from 2085 onwards (map wise at the very least) CANNOT be ported back to a pre 2085 build. The soldiertype, etc make the maps completely unusable.

If we find that the new versions have serious moddability problems we have not even experienced yet how long before these modding problems will even be understood let alone adressed.

You may have had the misfortune of reading a lot of my exchanges with the 1.13 mob. Am I really that hard to understand?

Apparently not since Kurt picked right up on the problem and Kriplo fixed it within about a week of those tow getting involved. The regular 'team' took months and were still asking the same questions because it was apparently not anything they seriously even wanted to look at but still wanted to argue for some reason.

Am I missing something about all of that? Was it me?

I've since moved very far passed caring about most of that but the extreme lack of communication still baffles me.

 

[Kaiden]

Well, I can assure you that nothing is going to be done about the backwards compatability issue, the team is intent on continuously looking forward. But some of your concerns have been addressed beginning with NIV. Anything that is not an obvious bug-fix gets a seperate build by whoever the developer is and gets tested for months before inclusion.

Of course, they ran into a slight problem this time around, as there were numerous developments out there and the "testers" are split. In fact some of the developments where the original coder is no longer around (externalized BR drop locations, and shotgun spread patterns) don't get any further testing because they are missing features that the players want more such as more mercenaries, or the EDB, etc...

So as far as stable releases, I beleive that they are moving in the right direction. 2085 had some serious bugs but none of them were game breaking and it wasn't near as disasterous as the 1080 official release which was supposed to be mostly bug fixes.

I'll be willing to bet that the next official release does not require an immediate hot-fix to be released to fix serious bugs.

Regardless, I'm already working on development of my Deadly Games remake. And another thought occurred to me, I'm going to optionalize 8 people per team. I wasn't going to do it for single-sector combat, but I think allowing multiple sectors per mission may require the use of a few extra mercs incase some of your team gets really shot up. And I was going to stay away from sending multiple teams on a mission. I think only allowing 1 squad will help balance the difficulty of missions.

 

[Khor1255]

What I don't get is how is making a Stable Modding Platform from the 687 while also having the regular release not moving forward? It makes no sense at all to me.

What would be best for everyone is if modders had a version relatively bug free and made from a build we can trust. Then the typical full release does not need to stop or even slow down. This way not just the svn people are experiencing the bugs and reporting them but everyone. The svn crowd is either fairly inactive or cannot spot bugs the 'general population' of players can. If this were not the case disasters like the 1080 (and to a lesser extent I guess because it only affects modders) the 2085 would have never got passed them.

Modders need a build they can trust. It is better for the speedy testing and implementation of features and bug fixes that as many people get these new features as possible and as early as possible.

So I see no alternative rather to having one version stripped down and fairly bug free for modders, and another with the features and bug fixes that are going to move the whole thing forward.

But maybe that's just me.

Again, feel free to e-mail me with any questions or whatever concerning the Deadlier Games idea. I think it is very cool and trust me, I won't use your communication as another vent for my complete frustration with the later builds and team.

I said what I had to and since it is clear The Stable Modding Platform was just a sick joke I am done talking about it for the most part.

 

[Kaiden]

The SMP wasn't a sick joke, I had every intention, but it wasn't something I was willing to tackle alone and it took months for anyone else to step up. By then I didn't have any time to mess with it, but at least someone took it seriously.

Besides, you can mod my mod Once it's finished it won't be going anywhere, and that's about as stable as you can get

 

[Khor1255]

I really don't know the correct way to send a fart in cyber space but if I did....


Maybe I'll send you one of my poems. That might do it.


But in the mean time I am serious about helping you TRY to make a mod with the current architecture.

Could be a very good learning experience for all involved.

 

[The_scorpion]

Could be a very good learning experience for all involved.

:idea:


that's basicly the maximum you can achieve these days

 

[Khor1255]

Me? Yes.

Someone else? Maybe more. Who knows?

 

[Kaiden]

Glad you offered just shot you an e-mail.