Gothic Gothic remake from THQ Nordic

[Cryomancer]

But my point was that human players are more cunning, unforgiving and skilled than any AI opponents and For Honor's combat is doable with multiple oponents.

Doable and optimal are two different things. And For Honor "multiple" opponents is like 2/3 opponents, not a pack of wolves or a squad of 7 orcs. Not a skeleton mage that can summon 3 skeletons each few seconds.

The PC figthing better has they progress (=mastering their martial art and performing advanced moves with ease) is also something most hack 'n' slashes have. But completely unskilled characters picking weapons in a amateur fashion is a very nice touch.

I was not talking about moves, but STANCE.

ou were asking for Dark Souls combat which is slower.
Also slow how?

No, DS combat isn't slow. In fact, one second of error can mean that you will be backstabed and probably OHKilled.

manus fight on DS1 DLC

but you never explained why yout think the combat is so awful?

Lets go

• You waste too much time "staring" at the enemy
• Change the direction with mouse and keyboard is awful while on G1 if i CAN CTRL + Up key or CTRL + Left key and attack in different position
• Guard is awful
• The HP/stamina bar above the character is unimmersive. UI elements should't be on center of the screen
• You click to attack and takes a long time until your char attacks
• Animations that take out the control from the player mostly when fighting wolves
• Many hits are not considered
• Teh camera is too close
• Too much screen shaking.
• Can drink potions without a animation
• (...)
• And more important. Felt more like a mini game than a part of the game

Doesn't use popularity as a measure for quality.

I was not saying that is bad. Only that is more popular on consoles HENCE my impression that they are making it for console players not Gothic fans(dialog wheel and other BS corroborate it)

 

[Cryomancer]

What i mean by fast ttk/ttd is this.

Even maintaining the armor/health/damage scale of original game, with the for honor combat, there are no way that this encounter can work with a similar speed...

 

[DJOGamer PT]

Doable and optimal are two different things. And For Honor "multiple" opponents is like 2/3 opponents

It's also not optimal to figth multiple opponents in Gothic. And I've seen guys winning 1v5 in For Honor.

No, DS combat isn't slow. In fact, one second of error can mean that you will be backstabed and probably OHKilled.

1shot attacks are rare in DS, specially when you have high level characters.
But anyway Dark Souls is not faster paced than For Honor.

Spoiler

but you never explained why yout think the combat is so awful?

snip

It wasn't asking about the flaws of the remake's combat, but rather For Honor's.

 

[Cryomancer]

But anyway Dark Souls is not faster paced than For Honor.

When people are trying to avoid being hit at all cost. All attacks on For Honor felt like they are telegraphed, with no weight and armor felt like paper.

A much better system in immersion is MORDHAU

first video = mounted combat. Second = on foot

It's also not optimal to figth multiple opponents in Gothic. And I've seen guys winning 1v5 in For Honor.

Not true. If you have top grade armor, wolves will deal no damage on you and it makes sense, if a wolf bites thick steel, is more likely that their teeth will be broken than they will damage the meat protected by the steel. If you wanna clean Orc Town or raid the old camp on end game, you will face a lot of enemies.

That said, imagine that i casted 5 times army of darkness, conjured a demon and a golem and i an casting storm of fire that takes a very long time to charge. and the enemies are facing me on melee and at range with crossbows. How the for honor combat would work with this chaotic situation?

On Mount & Blade, you have mods that adds magic, undeads, large sized creatures and the game works fine. Because the game was made taking bows/crossbows and even firearms in mind.

edit - i will record i clearing(a part) of orc town as a mage for those who din't played G1...

 

[DJOGamer PT]

All attacks on For Honor felt like they are telegraphed, with no weight and armor felt like paper.

What do you mean by telegrahphed?
Do you mean that the player can "read"/estimate how the enemy will attack based on the signals an animation gives off?
Because for action games this is a really good thing.

Also no weigth is bullshit, given how detailed and crisp the animations and sound fx are.

A much better system in immersion is MORDHAU

Mordhau is in FPP, that alone makes it more immersive. It's combat also designed around that perspective, and FPP melee combat systems are never that complex.
Also Mordhau is mechanically inferior to For Honor.

It's also not optimal to figth multiple opponents in Gothic. And I've seen guys winning 1v5 in For Honor.

Not true. If you have top grade armor, wolves will deal no damage on you and it makes sense, if a wolf bites thick steel, is more likely that their teeth will be broken than they will damage the meat protected by the steel. If you wanna clean Orc Town or raid the old camp on end game, you will face a lot of enemies.

It's clearly not optimal to multiple figth enemies in the early game - and again because of how weak the system is, melee figths against groups is a silly affair.
But you just confirmed what I said earlier. When you get better gear and upgrade your character figthing groups becomes much easier, which is what would also happen under system (if they properly balance it).

 

[Cryomancer]

Mordhau is in FPP, that alone makes it more immersive.

You can play in third person

-------------------------------------------------------

We are in "circles", so i will just post 2 gameplay videos and wanna ask if you really believe that For Honor Combat would work

Orc Town - Gothic 1 MAGE

Freeing Faring - Gothic 3 WATER mage

At 5:50 on second video, you can see that you fight so many enemies that literally a 3m tall wall of corpses protecting the Orc.

Enemies use ranged weapons, ranged spells and also strike on melee.

"have a different system for magic/archery" - Cool, the combat already felt completely dissociated from the game, now we will have a ranged combat dissociated from melee combat dissociated from ranged combat... Why not another dissociated combat from multiple enemies?

 

[DJOGamer PT]

You can play in third person

It's kinda hard for me to explain the reasoning behind this. This is the best way I can put it:
The system was designed for first person, which is inherently more immersive than tpp. So that system will naturally take an immersivve aspect. Not to mention melee action combat systems in fpp, are always rather simple.

Also, it seems to me your reasoning for why you think the combat doesn't possess immersive qualities is the stance/directional guard icon?

And lastly, if you give me the choice between immersion or mechanical quality, I'll go with the latter. And For Honor combat system is one of the best around.

We are in "circles", so i will just post 2 gameplay videos and wanna ask if you really believe that For Honor Combat would work

...

At 5:50 on second video, you can see that you fight so many enemies that literally a 3m tall wall of corpses protecting the Orc.

Enemies use ranged weapons, ranged spells and also strike on melee.

Why you keep bringing up with the ranged combat? All these posts I've been talking specifically about the melee side of things.
I very much doubt you can defeat that wall of enemies in the original games solely using melee (unless you break the game someway).
Again the ranged combat would work under distinct set of mechanics like in most other hack 'n' slashes. And dealing with ranged enemies with melee characters simply comes down to evasion and closing the distance or adequate defense (armor, shields, a special item, etc...)

the combat already felt completely dissociated from the game

Explain please.

 

[Cryomancer]

if you give me the choice between immersion or mechanical quality, I'll go with the latter. And For Honor combat system is one of the best around.

But Gothic is ALL about immersion. But here is a detailed explanation to why the combat felt completely separated https://www.reddit.com/r/worldofgot...hy_the_teaser_combat_system_is_not_immersive/

All these posts I've been talking specifically about the melee side of things.

Because you will face ranged enemies. And will use ranged weaponry

My first run on Gothic 1 was as a TEMPLAR on Swamp Camp, i was hardcaped to circle 4 spells, so i had to use melee in many situations and can say that kill the most terrifying creatures in large groups doesn't take much time on G1. And on G3, you can "spin" a halberd and win most encounters. Here is a screenshot of a large sized enemy on G1

How fight this type of enemy can work with For Honor Combat?

--------------------------------------------------

Gothic is played and replayed multiple times TWO DECADES after his release not because has a good melee combat. Nor nice graphics. Nor controller friendly controls. But by being far more immersive than other games. You can prefer mechanical depth over immersion but i suggest to not play G1 in that case. All Gothic games are immersive.

 

[fantadomat]

And on G3, you can "spin" a halberd and win most encounters.

Would you people stop with that halbard shit?! Every game has its op cheese,arcanum have its harm,DAO have its shattering,etc etc. Also only incompetent retards use the halbard shit,i didn't even knew that it existed as a strat before i came here.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

But Gothic is ALL about immersion.

Sure.
But that does not excuse poor gameplay.
Doesn't matter how immersive it may be, bad game design is always a detriment to the experience.
And unlike the other ARPG's of the time, like Deus Ex and Morrowind, you can't play Gothic with a non-combat focused character because conflict is inevitable and the game doesn't provide enough options for the player to overcome those situations without relying on force.
So the game will drag the player, time and time again, to a position where he is must engange with a system that just isn't engaging and sucks the joy out of playing...
"Well if don't like melee you can always go ranged.". Ok but that doesn't change the fact the other half of the combat is terrible.

But here is a detailed explanation to why the combat felt completely separated https://www.reddit.com/r/worldofgot...hy_the_teaser_combat_system_is_not_immersive/

So I was rigth when I said that the "not immersive" complains stem pretty much from the stance/directional guard icon.

Ok, rigth of the bat I can't really trust much of this guy's opinion since he: 1) says that Skyrim's combat "demanded us to study enemies" ; 2) he thinks proper stamina management is a weak system.

Anyway his complains for the combat, have very easy fixes:
1) make enemy's stance animations more distinct and clear from one another;
2) remove the stance/directional guard icon from enemies;
3) put the player's life+stamina bar on one of the screen corners and make his stance/directional guard icon smaller.

Because you will face ranged enemies. And will use ranged weaponry

I've already explained this in the previous post and it's not like this is rocket science.
Again, while using a melee character you deal with ranged enemies the same way their dealt with in every other hack 'n' slash: by evading their attacks, getting near them, ambushing them or with suitable defenses - using armor/shields that can tank hits or special itens to counter them.
And ranged combat, again like most hack 'n' slashes, would work under a different set of mechanics.

How fight this type of enemy can work with For Honor Combat?

The same way it works on every other tpp hack 'n' slash with a lock-on feature...

 

[Elzair]

So does this mean PB are not doing Elex 2?

 

[DJOGamer PT]

All we know that they aren't working on this because they're busy on their next project. Migth be a ELEX sequel, migth be a new Gothic 2 new IP...

 

[fantadomat]

All we know that they aren't working on this because they're busy on their next project. Migth be a ELEX sequel, migth be a new Gothic 2 new IP...

Either way my dick is hard as obsidian!

 

[Modron]

All we know that they aren't working on this because they're busy on their next project. Migth be a ELEX sequel, migth be a new Gothic 2 new IP...

Would be shocked if their next gothic game comes out before Elex 2 they had already secured grants from the german government for Elex 2 as early as 6 months before Elex 1 even came out.

 

[Cryomancer]

Would you people stop with that halbard shit?! Every game has its op cheese,arcanum have its harm,DAO have its shattering,etc etc. Also only incompetent retards use the halbard shit,i didn't even knew that it existed as a strat before i came here.

Halberd swing is a viable tactic if you are surrounded by a pack of wolves IMO. That said, G1/2 had his cheese tactics too. On G2 for eg, a scroll to shapeshift in the chap 1 can make the chap 1 a piece of cake...

And G1, you can cheese too and become strong pretty early on. He was entering Orc area at lv 1...

Ok but that doesn't change the fact the other half of the combat is terrible.

You problem is the controlls(that aren't bad IMO) not with the combat itself

2) he thinks proper stamina management is a weak system.

He is partially right. Skyrim doesn't require you to study most enemies, just click, click and click. But stamina management is not good for a game that focus on immersion. I own a 175 lbf crossbow IRL, i can arm with my hands and fire dozens of bolts without becoming exhausted and don't consider my body in a good shape.

Again, while using a melee character you deal with ranged enemies the same way their dealt with in every other hack 'n' slash: by evading their attacks, getting near them, ambushing them or with suitable defenses - using armor/shields that can tank hits or special itens to counter them.

Did you played gothic? You can't charge into enemies using crossbows and expect to survive(unless they have weak crossbows and you have a amazing armor), nor evade bolts(bolts aren't slow like in dark souls. Hell, in dark souls, you can evade lightning, projectiles are pretty fast in gothic games)

---------------------------------

You are trying to see Gothic as a hack 'n' slash game, for this, we already have the piece of trash that ArcaniA is.

This dialog summarizes the state of the re make
https://www.reddit.com/r/gothicmemes/comments/ep23wf/the_current_state_of_the_remake/

 

[fantadomat]

Halberd swing is a viable tactic if you are surrounded by a pack of wolves IMO. That said, G1/2 had his cheese tactics too. On G2 for eg, a scroll to shapeshift in the chap 1 can make the chap 1 a piece of cake...

And G1, you can cheese too and become strong pretty early on. He was entering Orc area at lv 1...

Ahh that is what i am saying,all games have a way to cheese the system. Thus whining about muh halberd is retard.

This dialog summarizes the state of the re make

It is a demo for a potential remake,you can't summarize anything at this point. And yes,i do agree that the melee mechanic is retarded in that demo.

 

[Cryomancer]

And yes,i do agree that the melee mechanic is retarded in that demo.

Not only the combat sucks. Cutscenes sucks, dialog writing sucks, handholding since you start the game, dialog wheel(...) The combat is just another element that sucks in this "lets repeat the arcania mistakes 10 years later"

 

[DJOGamer PT]

You problem is the controlls(that aren't bad IMO) not with the combat itself

Are you even reading my posts?
I already stated ealier that the controls are just one part of the problem. There are other aspects that make the combat bad.

He is partially right. Skyrim doesn't require you to study most enemies, just click, click and click. But stamina management is not good for a game that focus on immersion. I own a 175 lbf crossbow IRL, i can arm with my hands and fire dozens of bolts without becoming exhausted and don't consider my body in a good shape.

Realsim != Good
Or immersive for that matter. Games can be very fanstastical and still be immersive.
Stamina management is a good mechanic for action games with more slow pace and high attack commitment.

Did you played gothic?

2

You can't charge into enemies using crossbows and expect to survive nor evade bolts

Are you saying that the only way, for a player with a melee focused build, to deal with ranged enemies is to also use some form of ranged attacks?

You are trying to see Gothic as a hack 'n' slash game

No I am not seeing the game as an Hack 'n' Slash. I am examining Gothic's melee combat as an Hack 'n' Slash system - which it fucking is one...

 

[Cryomancer]

There are other aspects that make the combat bad.

What aspects? IMO Gothic combat is not bad. In fact, i hate the melee combat on Risen 3 because the guy starts to do pirouettes, rotate, rotate, dance ballet and 10 seconds later, teleports to the enemy and strike with a sword. Gothic 1/2/3 doesn't have this BS. The combat is fast, brutal and responsible.

Realsim != Good
Or immersive for that matter. Games can be very fanstastical and still be immersive.

Depends. When a wolf bites me in my unarmored neck and i lost only 5% of health, it is not immersive. Unless i an playing with a superhuman godlike character or as a supernatural creature like a vampire. I don't think that carnavalesque armor like some guards had in remake is immersive too. And again, gothic is good because is more "grounded" htan modern RPG's. I don't wanna Gothic remake to be another ArcaniA clone. Where nothing makes any sense. Runes that should't even exist post G3 have cooldowns? We don't need to explain why they work, why they have cooldown nor why their are back. A lot of characters on southern islands? No explanation to why they moved there.

Stamina management is a good mechanic for action games with more slow pace and high attack commitment.

Not the case of Gothic. Gothic combat is faster and far more brutal than modern games. No Gothic game is "slow phased with high attack commitment". Gothic is IMO more similar to Diablo 1 where you kil land can die pretty quickly. And guess what. Stamina bar should't exist in both games.

Are you saying that the only way, for a player with a melee focused build, to deal with ranged enemies is to also use some form of ranged attacks?

No, have a amazing armor, use cover of the scenario at your favor... But lets be real, when you had ranged vs melee, ranged almost every time won. See battle of agincourt where a longbowman defeated knights despite being in far smaller numbers. See Oda Nobunaga who used firearms on most of his battles won almost all. Hell, the reason that he can defeat larger and stronger creatures like Bears are exactly because we have access to ranged weapons. Nobody used swords on hunting those beasts. throwing spears and bows are much better and at melee, polearms. Do you know why a Winged spear has his "wings"? Because is far easier to hunt boars, if they charge you and you have just a spear, you can kill the boar and be killed. But not with a winged spear. The "wings" will "stop" the beast. So yes, range is a amazing advantage since the ancient times.

As a Templar(1st run) and as a Magician(2nd run), crossbowmans and archers killed me far more than melee ones. On Gothic 3 Halberd is one of the most popular weapon exactly because is better vs animals and can be used vs large groups of enemies.

But for some people, you shouldn't fear a squad armed with deadly heavy crossbows because "fuck immersion". I don't expect even a very strong guy like Conan to charge upon a squad armed with such weaponry. And guess what. Gothic is a amazing game exactly because is better for me to run in that situation or try to separate the group

No I am not seeing the game as an Hack 'n' Slash. I am examining Gothic's melee combat as an Hack 'n' Slash system - which it fucking is one...

Gothic is more a CRPG than a ARPG in one aspect. What i mean by that? Whell, you can defeat Manus as a SL1 guy on Dark Souls 1. Will take a lot of time, effort and skill but you can, because player skill > char skill on ARPG's. On CRPG's, is different. If you have 10 STR and a poor knife, you will deal NO DAMAGE in a Orc Warrior. On Gothic, your char skill is more important.

 

[Peachcurl]

Gothic is more a CRPG than a ARPG in one aspect. What i mean by that? Whell, you can defeat Manus as a SL1 guy on Dark Souls 1. Will take a lot of time, effort and skill but you can, because player skill > char skill on ARPG's. On CRPG's, is different. If you have 10 STR and a poor knife, you will deal NO DAMAGE in a Orc Warrior. On Gothic, your char skill is more important.

So Diablo is not an ARPG?

I think your categorization only (barely) works for souls-like games.

 

[Murk]

I can't remember if minimum damage is in G1, but in G2 you always do some damage and you can kill the black troll at the very start of the game by circle-strafing him for like 3 minutes straight.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

What aspects? IMO Gothic combat is not bad.

Again I already mentionied those briefly in the last page.
But of the top of my head:
-janky animations
-clunky movement
-simple enemy design
-backing up trivializes parrying
-enemies are very susceptible to stun-locking
-not much to master
-clunky controls
-weak game feel

Gothic combat is faster and far more brutal than modern games.

It's really not.

No way in hell it's faster.
Neither more brutal.
Even when G1 came out in 2001, that same year saw the release of both Severance and DMC1. Both games harder than Gothic (and considerable better combat migth I add). And now, with challenging games kinda being in fashion, there have been many punishing titles coming out. Damn back in the Age of Decline (2006-2014), we got some tough games.

You need to try more action games.

No Gothic game is "slow phased with high attack commitment". Gothic is IMO more similar to Diablo 1 where you kil land can die pretty quickly. And guess what. Stamina bar should't exist in both games.

Well given how the melee combat isn't faster paced than Dark Souls, Nioh or For Honor, then like those games it is slow paced.
Then since also like those games you can't cancel your swings, it is high commitment.
And a Stamina system, when properly done (best examples are Nioh and For Honor), is an excellent addition to this type of melee combat.

No, have a amazing armor, use cover of the scenario at your favor

Using cover falls into the evasion category, and armor into the defence one.
So it's totally possible to deal with ranged characters with melee builds. The For Honor's combat system wouldn't make any of these things impossible.

But lets be real, when you had ranged vs melee, ranged almost every time won.

Enough with the realism nonsense man.
In a game, specially in a RPG, if the player's current playstyle makes it completely impossible to deal with X situations by any means (be it through force, speech, stealth, exploration, environmental manipulation, etc...), that is simply bad game design. Realism doesn't fucking matter.
Sure every tool for the rigth job. So where X playstyle shines, Y playstyle must sucks and vice-versa. But both X and Y should both be able to complete the task even if the results aren't in any way ideal. The only exceptions to this case is if the piece of content/quest is meant solely for Z playsytle and the game locks players playing as X or Y to partake in (think for example guild quests, were they only let classes associated with the guild to join in).
This is what RPG's are about after all.
So for example in this case. If a player was intent on playing a melee only character and the game would present him with situations where his playstyle is totally useless and the only way to progress is by compromising said build, then the fault lies in the game and it's systems.

Look. I am not saying "fuck immersion", but that it shouldn't be a road block proper game design.
"Realism", or making the game grounded, migth be fastest way for a game to achieve an immersive quality, but it is not the only way.

Gothic is more a CRPG than a ARPG in one aspect. What i mean by that? Whell, you can defeat Manus as a SL1 guy on Dark Souls 1. Will take a lot of time, effort and skill but you can, because player skill > char skill on ARPG's. On CRPG's, is different. If you have 10 STR and a poor knife, you will deal NO DAMAGE in a Orc Warrior. On Gothic, your char skill is more important.

And that's why Dark Souls ain't an ARPG.
Because in ARPG's (like Deus Ex) the player skill = char skill.
And Gothic is an ARPG, as it does obey to this rule given that char skill isn't a garantee of sucess if the player lacks skill and the inverse is also true.

And again, Gothic's combat system is that one of an hack 'n' slash. So it makes perfect sense to examine it's mechanics (controls, movement, available moves, animations, purpose, feedback, enemy design, game feel) as one would an hack 'n' slash.

 

[pOcHa]

wow, feeling exausted just skimming over the last few pages...

 

[Cryomancer]

I can't remember if minimum damage is in G1, but in G2 you always do some damage and you can kill the black troll at the very start of the game by circle-strafing him for like 3 minutes straight.

That is AWFUL. Is one reason to why goblin skeletons are the best summon on G2 NotR. Even Giant Trolls and dragons die quickly to a huge sized army of then...

PS : There are enemies that i can't damage on G1. I just tested an old save and i can't deal any damage to some enemies.

So Diablo is not an ARPG?

I think your categorization only (barely) works for souls-like games.

Yep. You are right. My ARPG definition was wrong.

-janky animations
-clunky movement
-simple enemy design
-backing up trivializes parrying
-enemies are very susceptible to stun-locking
-not much to master
-clunky controls
-weak game feel

You are looking to it as a modern game. All Piranha Bytes games has poor animations. Including Elex and Risen 3. Hell, only by not having ballet choreography is already a huge plus of G1 melee combat.

that same year saw the release of both Severance and DMC1. Both games harder than Gothic (and considerable better combat migth I add). And now, with challenging games kinda being in fashion, there have been many punishing titles coming out. Damn back in the Age of Decline (2006-2014), we got some tough games.

You need to try more action games.

Gothic is not a action only game. Is a RPG. And DMC1 focus more on a "stylish" combat, not in a immersive combat. Mount & Blade IMO has the best combat to be copied. Why?

• Directional attacks with option for both, mouse & keyboard
• Made with M&K in mind, not controllers
• No ballet/pirouettes moves.
• Made with ranged combat and melee combat in mind.
• Has no magic BUT a lot of mods added magic to the game and the combat worked well. In some
• Easier to be replicated by a smaller studio.
• More immersive

Even if For Honor and DMC combat is that great for Gothic(and spoiler - Is not), there are no way that a small starting studio will be able to replicate this combat.

Enough with the realism nonsense man.
In a game, specially in a RPG, if the player's current playstyle makes it completely impossible to deal with X situations by any means (be it through force, speech, stealth, exploration, environmental manipulation, etc...), that is simply bad game design. Realism doesn't fucking matter.

Wrong, having to DEAL with the consequences of your choices is a quintessential RPG element. If you play VtMB as a Nosferatu, seduction will not be a way to solve certain problems. If you only know fire based magic on M&M VI, you can't deal with fire immune mobs like Devils. Hell, thanks to "everything needs to be eqqual", we have BS things on modern games like Diablo III where your spell damage scale with the size and sharpness of your axe and you can kill the skeleton king by sucking his blood(Siphon Blood) or poisoning him... Or Arcania, another game that tried to bring every modern BS into gothic.

And remember, i din't said that is impossible to deal with then on melee, only that a frontal charge with no thinking should't be a option unless you have a amazing armor and they have weak weaponry and thus are unable to deal any lethal damage upon you.

Keep in mind that stone golems are almost immune to anything except blunt weapons and it includes bows, crossbows and even magic. I know because a fully charged STorm of Fire(500 damage) dealt no damage on a rocky golem...

 

[DJOGamer PT]

So it makes perfect sense to examine it's mechanics (controls, movement, available moves, animations, purpose, feedback, enemy design, game feel) as one would an hack 'n' slash.

You are looking to it as a modern game.

No I am simply judging the game's hack 'n' slash combat system like I would any other.
Severance, a game that came out a month before G1, did most of those aspects I mentioned before so well that even today it still has a great combat system (better than anything by FROM).

Gothic is not a action only game.

I know. I was just pointing out that Gothic isn't as unforgiving as more recent titles.

there are no way that a small starting studio will be able to replicate this combat.

Isn't THQ a major game publisher?
They surely most have the cash for this endeavor.
Plus considereing what they already have and the fact this teaser pretty much amounts to an early alpha (so the studio can spend much more on the project). Achieveing something like For Honor's or Nioh's level of quality, probably isn't that much of an undertaking.

Wrong, having to DEAL with the consequences of your choices is a quintessential RPG element. If you play VtMB as a Nosferatu, seduction will not be a way to solve certain problems. If you only know fire based magic on M&M VI, you can't deal with fire immune mobs like Devils. Hell, thanks to "everything needs to be eqqual", we have BS things on modern games like Diablo III where your spell damage scale with the size and sharpness of your axe and you can kill the skeleton king by sucking his blood(Siphon Blood) or poisoning him... Or Arcania, another game that tried to bring every modern BS into gothic.

Didn't you read the rest of my post?

Sure every tool for the rigth job. So where X playstyle shines, Y playstyle must sucks and vice-versa. But both X and Y should both be able to complete the task even if the results aren't in any way ideal. The only exceptions to this case is if the piece of content/quest is meant solely for Z playsytle and the game locks players playing as X or Y to partake in (think for example guild quests, were they only let classes associated with the guild to join in).

So while Nosferatu migth not be able to use seduction (and other powers), and there will certainly be quests where this class is big disadvantage to the player, the quest can still be completed with him but through other means - even if they don't wield ideal results. And there will also be quests where he is the class with less difficulties in succeeding, as well as content that he can only complete because said content is specifically tailored for him and no one else.