System Shock List of immersive sims.

[Spukrian]

I was searching the forums for a big list of immersive sims but couldn't find one, so I thought I should make one.

Some people seem to really hate the term immersive sim, personally I find good to have a term for this type of games so that it's easier to find games I like.

BadSector wrote a good definition of immersive sims:

• Simulated systems that affect the game world's state and/or each other
  
• Game progression is based around completing goals based on game world state (as opposed to performing specific actions)
  
• Focus on level design that lets the player take advantage of those systems to complete their goals in alternative ways
  
• A form of character progression that improves and/or enables use/manipulation of these simulated systems

The list:

IMMERSIVE SIM:
System Shock:
System Shock 2
Ultima Underworld
Ultima Underworld 2
Deus Ex
Deus Ex Invisible War
Prey (2017)
Metal Gear Solid V
S.T.A.L.K.E.R.
Dwarf Fortress
Thief The Dark Project
Thief 2 The Metal Age
Thief Deadly Shadows
Arx Fatalis
Dark Messiah of Might and Magic
Deus Ex Human Revolution
Deus Ex Mankind Divided
Dishonored
Dishonored 2
Dishonored Death of the Outsider
Bioshock
Bioshock 2
Vampire The Masquerade Bloodlines

NOT ON THE LIST:
Bioshock Infinite

NOT RELEASED YET:
Monomyth

So please give suggestions for additions to the list. Also if some game shouldn't be on the list.

 

[Falksi]

The Sims

 

[Hobo Elf]

Bioshock was a straight up console shooter. It didn't have any immersive sim elements that I recall.

 

[Stormcrowfleet]

Monomyth

 

[†††]

MGS V

 

[Nifft Batuff]

Remove immediately the bioshock games from the list. And add MGSV. And S.T.A.L.K.E.R.

 

[Silly Germans]

I was searching the forums for a big list of immersive sims but couldn't find one, so I thought I should make one.

Some people seem to really hate the term immersive sim, personally I find good to have a term for this type of games so that it's easier to find games I like.

The definition of immersive sim seems to be that the game establishes systems and rules, and then lets the player interact freely with those systems, sometimes causing unintended effects (emergent gameplay).

The list:

Spoiler

System Shock
System Shock 2

Ultima Underworld
Ultima Underworld 2

Thief The Dark Project
Thief 2 The Metal Age
Thief Deadly Shadows

Deus Ex
Deus Ex Invisible War
Deus Ex Human Revolution
Deus Ex Mankind Divided

Arx Fatalis
Dark Messiah of Might and Magic

Dishonored
Dishonored 2
Dishonored Death of the Outsider

Prey (2017)

Bioshock
Bioshock 2
Bioshock Infinite

So please give suggestions for additions to the list. Also if some game shouldn't be on the list.

The term is non descriptive and the definition is so loose that pretty much any game fits it. Every game defines rules and lets you interact with it, its probably one of the most basic property that many games share. A game like Crysis 1 is probably not what you want in your list, yet it fits the definition.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

if you don't want the bioshocks, because they lack in scope despite the numbers taped on it, i'd doubt of the thiefs too.

 

[DalekFlay]

Please list all the games in this hazily defined cross-genre. Nah.

 

[Nifft Batuff]

if you don't want the bioshocks, because they lack in scope despite the numbers taped on it, i'd doubt of the thiefs too.

Well, the thiefs are famous for their emergent gameplay so that they are often cited as historical examples of immersive sims along Deus Ex.

Another game that should be on this list is Dwarf Fortress.

 

[Gilius Thunderhead]

Rather than make a list, it'd be more helpful to describe how each game fits the definition. Otherwise it's useless.

 

[Bad Sector]

The term is non descriptive and the definition is so loose that pretty much any game fits it. Every game defines rules and lets you interact with it, its probably one of the most basic property that many games share. A game like Crysis 1 is probably not what you want in your list, yet it fits the definition.

I wrote this in Reddit yesterday which i think is a good description of immersive sims (and how they differ from RPGs - also someone brought up TES which is why i mention it):

In general one of the core ideas behind immersive sims is that the gameplay is heavily based around simulated systems. In your example, water conducts electricity, enemies get damaged by electricity, throwing a live wire or other source of electicity into the water causes it to spread that electricity and damage the enemies - however you could throw the electricity directly to the enemies, or you can have other electricity conductors or instead of damaging enemies electricity can have other effects.

The above is in opposition to scripted events - the same example you gave could actually be scripted around each pool: throw a nearby electric wire into the water to damage the enemies in the water. The difference here is that this is a very specific scripted action and you do not get the other effects of a simulated system.

Perhaps a better example to show the difference would be lighting candles. In a game i played some time ago you could light candles in rooms by shooting fire arrows at them. To put arrows on fire you had to take out an arrow and put it over a fire so that itself catches fire. However this was not a simulated system in action, these were scripted actions. In the same game you gained the ability to throw fire and later even throw arrows on fire you created yourself, but since there wasn't a fire system in the game, you couldn't use that fire or the fire arrows you created to light the candles - you had to use the scripted approach, even though it didn't make sense that candles can get lit by throwing fire arrows on them cannot get lit by throwing... other fire arrows at them :-P.

Also the TES comparison makes sense since Bethesda's engine regardless of the flak it often takes, has a lot of systems going on (especially in the earlier titles) and pretty much all immersive sims also have heavy RPG elements (usually skill trees, though some like Arx Fatalis have more traditional character creation with XP, skill points and such).

What makes the difference (IMO) is that in an immersive sim your in-game progress is driven by completing goals which are achieved not by pre-scripted actions (e.g. roll the boulder on the floorplate) but by world state conditions that themselves are altered by the simulated systems (e.g. the floorplate must be pushed down - you can do it by rolling the boulder on it or by putting any other object with weight on it and rely on the physics system to push it down - if you have a magic system you could even cast a weight altering spell to make the floorplate itself 10 times heavier so it pushes itself down).

In comparison, RPGs - even if they have simulated systems in place - rely on quests for their progress and those quests rely on prescripted events and conditions (talk to some NPC, kill some monster, pick up some item) for their completion.

In general i'd say that the defining characteristics for Immersive Sims are:

• Simulated systems that affect the game world's state and/or each other
  
• Game progression is based around completing goals based on game world state (as opposed to performing specific actions)
  
• Focus on level design that lets the player take advantage of those systems to complete their goals in alternative ways
  
• A form of character progression that improves and/or enables use/manipulation of these simulated systems

 

[Nifft Batuff]

Actually I think it is easier to find a consensus on the definition of "immersive sim" (aka "systemic game") rather than on the definition of RPG.

 

[DalekFlay]

Defining anything by a clear genre today is an exercise in futility, really. Except for retro style games.

 

[Ghulgothas]

The first two BioShocks are admittedly streamlined, but still have enough of the mechanics and elements of their predecessors for a spot on your list.

Remove BioShock Infinite entirely.

 

[Nifft Batuff]

The first two BioShocks are admittedly streamlined, but still have enough of the mechanics and elements of their predecessors for a spot on your list.

Remove BioShock Infinite entirely.

Speaking about the first Bioshock, I remember that the systemic elements are basically only estetic. They are there only because there were also in the "spiritual predecessor", but they didn't contribute meaningfullly to the gameplay. Basically Bioshock is a shooter where your only way to complete the game is killing everything that moves. The only systemic mechanics that I remember is the possibility to kill the enemies by shooting directly in the face or by exploiting water puddles by electricity. Are there any other significant elements that I don't remember?

I think also that a way to understand what is the difference between a system based game and one that it is not, even if apparently the games share the same elements, is to compare the original Thief with Thief(2014). Apparently Thief(2014) shares the exact checklist of elements of the original Thief, but the way they are realized cannot be more different.

 

[felipepepe]

One of the hardest subgenres to define... depending on your definition, could also include stuff like the Hitman games, Dishonored, MGS V, Styx, Bloodlines, DEX, Alpha Brotocol, TRON 2.0, Void Bastards, STALKER, Supraland, Bloodlust, Call of Cthulhu and/or Pathologic.

BioShock itself is highly debatable, I feel it's mostly marketing & the Looking Glass legacy that puts it in that list.

 

[Ghulgothas]

They are there only because there were also in the "spiritual predecessor", but they didn't contribute meaningfullly to the gameplay.

The systems of Bioshock I'd cite as being it's core "sim" components are the security/hacking and the arsenal variety. Both of which can be ignored (to an extent) in a completion run, but such is more a self-imposed challenge than a result of shallow implementation. Effective, efficient gameplay of both BioShocks necessitates that you be mindful of and interact with both across the game. Blundering into cameras and turrets and neglecting applicable bits of your arsenal wasn't wise in Thief or System Shock 2 either, though the latter did have a better skill system than BioShock.

Basically Bioshock is a shooter where your only way to complete the game is killing everything that moves.

The same can be said of System Shock 2, but it had better stealth and a more thoughtful inventory. BioShock just has a bigger variety of weapons, ammos and powers at your immediate disposal to do it with while cutting out any pretense of sneaking or survival.

Are there any other significant elements that I don't remember?

It had research! But that's by far the one you're most likely to ignore and forget about.

 

[Butter]

Underworld Ascendant.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

1. Life
2. Dwarf Fortress

Order may change in the next 30 years.

 

[El Presidente]

I don't really understand the need for this to be its own thing, 99% of the times I see "immersive sim" used, it's just a glorified replacement for "atmospheric first person games". Considering pretty much every single title in OP's list is just that, an atmospheric first person game, that's about right.

The other 1% of the times I see this term is for non first person atmospheric games.

So, why don't just say atmospheric games? What's the difference between an "immersive sim" and a (first person) atmospheric game?

Regardless, Bloodlines should be on the list.

 

[Butter]

I don't really understand the need for this to be its own thing, 99% of the times I see "immersive sim" used, it's just a glorified replacement for "atmospheric first person games". Considering pretty much every single title in OP's list is just that, an atmospheric first person game, that's about right.

The other 1% of the times I see this term is for non first person atmospheric games.

So, why don't just say atmospheric games? What's the difference between an "immersive sim" and a (first person) atmospheric game?

Look at the description Bad Sector wrote. Compare Deus Ex to something like Skyrim. Both first person, both atmospheric, both have enemies and skills, but Deus Ex is a game that encourages players to try multiple approaches to any given problem, to find multiple paths to every objective, to even think laterally and use the systems to their advantage (like building staircases out of boxes).

 

[Spukrian]

The term is non descriptive and the definition is so loose that pretty much any game fits it. Every game defines rules and lets you interact with it, its probably one of the most basic property that many games share. A game like Crysis 1 is probably not what you want in your list, yet it fits the definition.

Yes, the definition I wrote is crap but I was in a bit of a hurry... That said, there are definitely people who consider Crysis 1 to be an immersive sim.

Rather than make a list, it'd be more helpful to describe how each game fits the definition. Otherwise it's useless.

I'm going to update the list and add some words about why the game belongs on it.

In general i'd say that the defining characteristics for Immersive Sims are:

• Simulated systems that affect the game world's state and/or each other
  
• Game progression is based around completing goals based on game world state (as opposed to performing specific actions)
  
• Focus on level design that lets the player take advantage of those systems to complete their goals in alternative ways
  
• A form of character progression that improves and/or enables use/manipulation of these simulated systems

That's an excellent definition! Would you mind if I put it in the OP?

 

[Bad Sector]

That's an excellent definition! Would you mind if I put it in the OP?

Sure, though note that this wasn't the clearest description, i was just a bit lazy typing this (why i also copy/pasted the other part instead of writing it better to match the posts here) :-P.

At some point i want to write a post/article with more detail.

 

[Spukrian]

Thank you!