Lora Reviews Daggerfall

[kingcomrade]

Looking for the WindowsXP Daggerfall Install tool, I found this:

http://www.geocities.com/bigorrin/daggerreview.htm

Game: Daggerfall
Reviewer: Lora on the Geocities website "Lora's CRPG Reviews"
Score: 3/10 "Disappointing"

Daggerfall is one of the biggest disappointments I've had in a computer game...
-snip-
Achieving non-linearity through purposelessness is a dubious accomplishment, though, and here in the modern era--where CRPG's like Baldur's Gate II offer hundreds of actually creative adventures for players to explore or not at their whims, and MMORPG's like EverQuest offer layers of rich human interaction to enhance the action--Daggerfall's brand of freedom feels more like boredom...
-snip-
If You Loved Daggerfall: Then you would probably really love Morrowind;...Try Baldur's Gate 2 or Wizardry 8 if you're looking for a really well-done CRPG;

The chick gave 9/10 to Planescape: Torment. The best RPGs evar made are Baldur's Gate 2 and Wizardry 8. Fallout isn't there.

Here's a quote from the 7/10 Morrowind review:

Excellent character development, quests with more than one solution, and open-ended gameplay help compensate for the terrible pacing and mediocre interface of this first-person CRPG.

Character developement, multiple solutions, open-ended gameplay! It sounds better than Fallout!

PS Can anyone please give me a link to the Daggerfall XP Install Tool? Dosbox won't install it and Fileplanet (the only place I could find without a broken link) is being gay, I started out waiting in line for 10 minutes, now it's 665 minutes.

 

[Section8]

Can't help on the XP installer, my current version is installed from a downloaded .ISO, since my original copy is buried somewhere among piles of my old shit back at my parent's place.

As for the review, I think her perspective is far too swayed by games that have come since, and a little unforgiving of bugs. Back in '96, Daggerfall was an incredible achievement, and I can't think of any game that rivalled the complexity of its procedural content. It's also obvious that there are trade-offs for a world that huge, in cookie cutter NPCs and repetitive environment brushes, but even back in the day that was a caveat I was certainly aware of.

As for the bugs, I do remember occasionally falling through the walls/floors of the dungeons, but nothing more drastic than that. Even playing it today, I don't have anywhere near as many bugs as she insinuated. As for whether they're forgivable, the statement...

"There's no excuse for shipping a product that malfunctions as badly as this one did."

...shows a pretty naive view of what the games industry is actually like. Games with the technical complexity of Daggerfall are certain to have their fair share of bugs, but does that mean a developer shouldn't be ambitious, and just churn out the same "safe" homogenised shit as everyone else?

Now, as for the ratings:

Plot & Quests (2/5): ...There are only a few side quests with actual content, and hundreds of boring computer-generated ones assigned by guildmasters and other people you're trying to win favor with.

Now, while the quests may have been pretty much identical on the surface (Go here, find/kill this) what I had to go through as a player for each one can be pretty varied, partly because of the character system, but primarily due to the generated dungeons. I remember entering a dungeon that was 90% submerged, and so having to find a magical means to overcome my deficient swimming skill, along with shedding my armour and gear (stowed in my horse and cart ).

Comparitively, Morrowind gets (3.5/5) for its hundreds of boring handcrafted ones assigned by guildmasters and other people you're trying to win favour with.

Puzzles and Mental Challenges (0.5/5): The biggest challenge in this game is navigation. The automap doesn't function well underground, and the illogical random 3D tunnels can be difficult to map by hand or maneuver around.

And that's not considered a reasonable challenge for what reason? That was part of the massive dungeons' charm - effective navigation was taxing, and I don't see why that should be disregarded in favour of traditional puzzles. I'd prefer a navigational challenge to Towers of Hanoi (yet again), Fibonacci sequences, etc. any day.

Characters (2/5): You get one character in this game who is completely customizable both in terms of skills and appearance (well, unless you want to be a non-Caucasian human, but that's another story.)

Redguards, anyone? I also fail to see how a game that is almost completely devoid of any actual character can get two out of five, while the significant mental challenges it provides only rate a half out of five. Really makes those ratings look a bit whimsical, especially when Morrowind gets a whopping three-and-a-half (!) despite exactly the same criticisms.

Now if I were going to skew the two, I'd say "Daggerfall comes out in front, because expectations of procedurally generated NPCs in 1996 are low, whereas a 2002 release with explicitly scripted NPCs has no fucking excuse."

There are other ratings, but I'm getting tired of this post already. Plus, Morrowind got an ungodly 4.5/5 (!!!!!!) for gameplay, and the recommendation is "If you're new to the genre, on the other hand, this is a bad game to start with because of its very slow beginning and aimless feel."

Strange that the opposite seems to be true in reality.

It's hard to think of anyone I'd actually recommend this game to. If you have nostalgic feelings about Daggerfall from ten years ago, playing it again today may be something of a disappointing shock.

Completely wrong on that count. I still play and enjoy Daggerfall, perhaps trying to evaluate it objectively many years after the release is a better way to induce disappointment.

Oh and http://www.geocities.com/ataniel/dagger9.htm is a related article.

 

[Twinfalls]

The price Daggerfall fetches on Ebay speaks volumes compared to reviews by pompous little idiots.

Back in '96, Daggerfall was an incredible achievement, and I can't think of any game that rivalled the complexity of its procedural content.

Sec8 can you think of any game since that does, or comes anywhere close?

 

[Zomg]

I find it hard to generate animus towards a geocities site.

However, I think that Daggerfall deserves more points for pointing in the right direction and for being ahead of its time than for what it actually was. The dungeons, while sometimes interesting, were almost unplayable 4-5 hour affairs; I can't be the only person that scums non-dungeon quests when I'm not feeling masochistic. The effective gameplay variance of random quests was small. The hand-crafted multipathed stuff (main quest, vampirism, lycanthropy) was all very good, but there wasn't that much of it. The books and setting were good, but Morrowind did a far superior job in the Tolkein-esque "world evoking" category. I don't think it's really a flawed masterpiece, as some categorize it, but more like a crude precursor. And, unfortunately, there hasn't been much progress made towards making that game that it was precursing.

 

[Chefe]

I don't think it's really a flawed masterpiece, as some categorize it, but more like a crude precursor. And, unfortunately, there hasn't been much progress made towards making that game that it was precursing.

Hehe, I like that logic. That's probably the best summarization of Daggerfall I've ever heard.

Man, just imagine if the old Daggerfall team was to make it's true successor with today's technology. Well actually, I don't want to think about it too much or else I'll depress myself seeing as it's never going to happen.

 

[Twinfalls]

I don't think it's really a flawed masterpiece, as some categorize it, but more like a crude precursor. And, unfortunately, there hasn't been much progress made towards making that game that it was precursing.

A little too glib for me. Daggerfall is not a crude game; it's highly sophisticated especially when compared to its successor. It achieved its (lofty) major goals, and those goals have not been attempted by anything since afaik. Its lore is cohesive and believable. The sheer scale of its world together with its graphics, sound, and the atmosphere they create make it a unique work of art.

 

[Section8]

Sec8 can you think of any game since that does, or comes anywhere close?

Hmm, well most Roguelikes are comparable to some extent, but a 2D tile based map is a whole different story to an interlocking 3D maze.

I'd be curious to try http://dungeondoom.d3files.com/, but that would actually require Doom 3 and it's expansion, and I couldn't be fucked pirating them both. I'm pretty sure there have been random map generators for most high profile FPS games since Quake, all third party (obviously) and not runtime generated, but unfortunately I can't seem to track down a working link for any of them.

But really, it's a finite problem with infinite results, and with enough thought and expertise thrown at it, you can get some superb results. Certainly it's arguably more cost efficient to explicitly script everything, but that's only when you consider things on a small scale.

For a developer like Bethesda, who create expansive "RPG" after expansive RPG, it makes a lot of sense to develop content generators alongside each generation of Elder Scrolls game. What they're doing with landmass and forests is a good start, but neither of those have any real gameplay application. RAI, too is a step in the right direction. Unfortunately, everything else they do is a step in the wrong direction.

Man, just imagine if the old Daggerfall team was to make it's true successor with today's technology. Well actually, I don't want to think about it too much or else I'll depress myself seeing as it's never going to happen.

It would be pretty fucking fantastic, but yeah. Since Bethesda want to do everything in their power to cast off the shackles that were once a loyal fanbase...

 

[Chefe]

A little too glib for me. Daggerfall is not a crude game, it's highly sophisticated especially when compared to its successor.

Saying it's better than Morrowind is not really anything to write home about. There were many things that could have been expanded upon in Daggerfall, such as more blanace (huge thing) and more well-rounding of the skillset and advantages/disadvantages, better and more advanced guild relationships, more consequences for your actions (either good or bad), more evolving plotlines, etc.

Yes, it was highly sophisticated. As we all know, it was perhaps too sophisticated for its time. However, it was an excellent framework for what could have been the greatest hands-down RPG of all time. It just needed to be more fleshed out in its sequel (or sequels).

Look at it like this. Daggerfall is like the Mona Lisa, the figure is there but there is no background to give the picture a complete and finished look.

 

[kingcomrade]

I have the .iso of Daggerfall too. I extracted it all using ISOBuster and then tried to install using Doxbox, but it tells me I don't have enough hard drive space (wtf? maybe having 16 gig open is too much for the poor old program? or is it something else?). It crashes if I run it in normal Windows XP.

I'm surprised people took the site so seriously. It's some random Geocities site, I was just really amused by it, especially the bit about how people who liked Daggerfall would love Morrowind. Kinda reminds me of The Biggest Waste of Time Ever Page or something like that, where he gives ratings like 760 golden stars, and then has 760 yellow asterisks after it.

 

[Chefe]

What they're doing with landmass and forests is a good start, but neither of those have any real gameplay application. RAI, too is a step in the right direction. Unfortunately, everything else they do is a step in the wrong direction.

One step forward, three steps back, eh? Bethesda is the freakin' definition of that phrase. And yes, I did say "three" steps.

If they would have taken that procedural engine and enhanced it to support towns, dungeons, simple quests (meaning: pretty basic), and even a slightly less refined RAI, we could have the start of a real Arena/Daggerfall successor on our hands here. I say slightly less refined because RAI really doesn't need to be the end-all be-all of simulated virtual life. NPCs really don't need to eat three meals a day, shower, shit, and all that other junk. They need to walk around, occasionally eat something, occasionally purcase an item, and go to sleep at night. A simpler system like that could have been worked into a generator, I believe.

 

[Twinfalls]

Saying it's better than Morrowind is not really anything to write home about. There were many things that could have been expanded upon in Daggerfall, such as more <stuff>

The point was that it's not a 'crude' achievement of its procedural goals, as zomg put it. Yes, it could have been expanded with tons of stuff - in an imaginary world with no time or budget constraints. A lot of what people say it 'could' or 'should' have had, can only be proposed because of the huge amount that the designers succeeded in implementing in the first place.

As a game in its own right, on its own terms, its an outstanding success, a unique and complete work. This is not to say it is perfect - of course it has flaws.

If they would have taken that procedural engine and enhanced it to support towns, dungeons, simple quests (meaning: pretty basic), and even a slightly less refined RAI, we could have the start of a real Arena/Daggerfall successor on our hands here.

Will we ever, with Todd 'Daggerfall: tons of procedural garbage' Howard at the helm?

In the lead-up to Morrowind's release, interviews were conducted with the developers in which questions were asked about procedural quest and town content generation (from which the Toddmonkey's infamous comment sprang). While no-one expects the moron-hype gibbering which has replaced interviews nowadays to have anything interesting discussed, you'd think the official board's fan interviews might have asked about this topic - but I believe it hasn't come up.

 

[Chefe]

The point was that it's not a 'crude' achievement of its procedural goals, as zomg put it. Yes, it could have been expanded with tons of stuff - in an imaginary world with no time or budget constraints.

Or in the sequel. I'm not talking about everything including the kitchen sink here, I'm talking about being a little more refined around the edges; a task that was impossible for a game of Daggerfall's scope in 1996.

As a game in its own right, on its own terms, its an outstanding success, a unique and complete work.

No argument.

While no-one expects the moron-hype gibbering which has replaced interviews nowadays to have anything interesting discussed, you'd think the official board's fan interviews might have asked about this topic - but I believe it hasn't come up.

If I remember correctly, about a month or so ago they were planning another fan interview. Among the top 40 potential questions that were listed to ask the developers, one of them was "How many different Dai-Katanas are there?"

 

[Lumpy]

Ask what about this topic? It's not in, what else is there to be asked?
Besides, you could have asked the question. Why didn't you?

 

[Twinfalls]

Ask what about this topic? It's not in, what else is there to be asked?

Q. Daggerfall has garnered lasting acclaim for being the only 3D RPG with procedurally generated quest and town content. It's one of the prime reasons the game is still so highly sought after. Are there any plans to revisit these techniques for future TES games? How do you feel about what many fans have asked for - a mixture of mostly hand-made quest and dialogue, but with some randomised procedural stuff to keep things interesting and unpredictable, and to expand the scale?

Q. You have developed procedural forest and terrain generation tools. What have you learned in that process which might be applied to procedurally generating settlements?

Q. Does the shift to fully-voiced NPCs limit the scope for expanding procedural content in future games? How might you overcome this problem?

Q. Your 'Radiant AI' tool seems a terrific way to enable procedural generation of thousands of NPCs. Are you confident enough with the present iteration to do without individual testing of each NPC's behaviour outcomes?

Q. Daggerfall's procedural quests allowed a great feature - the ability to decline quests, and choose a new one instead. It also facilitated time limits on quests. Are there any plans to return these features in future? Are they feasible without procedural generation?

Besides, you could have asked the question. Why didn't you?

I haven't interviewed any Bethesda developers. If you mean why didn't I submit it for the fan interview, well, for a start I didn't know there was a new one until too late - as soon as any such thread starts on that board, the weight of the bajillion instant 'how many daikatanas/horses/bazooka staffs' type questions gets rather overwhelming.

 

[Zomg]

The point was that it's not a 'crude' achievement of its procedural goals, as zomg put it. Yes, it could have been expanded with tons of stuff - in an imaginary world with no time or budget constraints. A lot of what people say it 'could' or 'should' have had, can only be proposed because of the huge amount that the designers succeeded in implementing in the first place.

Obviously it's hard to argue for or against the subjectivity of "crude vs. sophisticated", and I should probably just let my position speak for itself. I could state particular instances of crudity, to be matched by particular instances of sophistication, I guess, but it won't be fruitful. I think the "Codex consensus" is that Daggerfall is a good game in and of itself, below the great games but above the mean, and a template of extreme potential, and I agree with that assessment.

 

[Twinfalls]

I think the "Codex consensus" is that Daggerfall is a good game in and of itself, below the great games but above the mean, and a template of extreme potential, and I agree with that assessment.

I agree with you there, except I'd call it a 'great' game.

 

[Lumpy]

I haven't interviewed any Bethesda developers. If you mean why didn't I submit it for the fan interview, well, for a start I didn't know there was a new one until too late - as soon as any such thread starts on that board, the weight of the bajillion instant 'how many daikatanas/horses/bazooka staffs' type questions gets rather overwhelming.

http://rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=10115
And the members who were selecting questions read them all and chose the best ones. Yours would surely have been chosen, should they have been posted.

 

[Twinfalls]

Fair enough, guilty as charged. You'll forgive me for being a little antipathetic to it all at this stage though, Lumpy. I can imagine the devs one-liner response anyway: 'procedural generation is not something were doing for this game, we may look into it in future. NEXT'

 

[Jason]

Hey KC, if you don't have any luck with the installer or dosbox, try this. Create a file in Notepad with the text:

@echo off
set dos4gvm+@dagger.vmc
fall.exe z.cfg

Save the file as nocd.bat or isuckdick.bat. Then open the z.cfg file and make sure the path and pathcd both refer to C:\dagger\arena2\ (or whatever the arena2 path is for you). To play the game, double click the nocd.bat file. It works fine for me in XP. Good luck.

 

[RandomLurker]

I have the .iso of Daggerfall too. I extracted it all using ISOBuster and then tried to install using Doxbox, but it tells me I don't have enough hard drive space (wtf? maybe having 16 gig open is too much for the poor old program? or is it something else?).

Have you tried mounting the drives in Dosbox with the "-freesize x" (x - space on the mounted drive in dosbox. 2000 should be more than enough for virtually anything) command? It worked for me.

 

[Pr()ZaC]

Let's burn the witch at the stake.
Daggefall I loved, Morrowind I hated.

Use DosBox + D-Fend (front end) to run Daggerfall.