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Editorial Rampant Coyote on "Technical Dungeons"

Crooked Bee

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Tags: Dungeons; Rampant Games

Rampant Coyote brings a matter of utmost importance to attention in his blog post on the lost art of making the dungeon itself a non-trivial challenge in a CRPG. He even has a term for dungeons that abuse you with style, "technical dungeons":

I don’t know how to define it yet. You get it in many roguelikes and old-school western RPGs. You don’t get it in most JRPGs or modern non-indie RPGs. Darklight Dungeon Eternity has a lot of it (thus my pondering on this matter). Frayed Knight: The Skull of S’makh-Daon has less of it than I’d like. Ultima V had it. Ultima VI, not so much. Ultima VII had very little of it. Ultima Underworld, Dungeon Master, the Eye of the Beholder games – they had it in spades. From accounts, Wizardry IV had way too much of it to be any fun at all except to masochists. But all of the Wizardry games had plenty of it, up until Wizardry 8, which didn’t have very much of it in spite of plenty of dungeon crawling. The Elder Scrolls games had tons of dungeon crawling, but didn’t really have much of it either that I could feel.

What I’m talking about is the technical, analytical approach to navigating a dungeon. It’s a point where the dungeons of a game become more than just a setting where the game and story happens, and more than just a path between combat and puzzles. It’s where the dungeon itself is becomes an obstacle, encounter, or character in the game in its own right, offering explicit or implicit clues to its own nature. Where navigation of the dungeon requires a constant weighing of risk and reward. They can be automapped, but the map may actually need to be studied by the player from time to time to determine how to get to where he wants to go, or to figure out its secrets. A technical dungeon is decidedly non-linear, and is not something that will usually be "defeated" in a single session. While any old dungeon may contain combat, traps, puzzles, and secrets, in a technical dungeon these are not stand-alone elements.​

Read on.

One thing the coyote fails to mention are teleporter mazes. Mmm, teleporter mazes. Along with shifting walls, trap rooms and turntables, they are definitely the way to go if you don't want your dungeon to be too banal. But I think I can forgive the rampant one for not mentioning that. After all, he's one of us. Don't you long for a CRPG in which, if the enemies don't get you, the dungeon itself will? I know I do.
 

hiver

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Yeah well, i can see right there why it was decided that the whole thing might be removable as a resource and development burden while still maintaining enough action for a normal massmarket gamer.

And would it be even possible, in a game like skywayrim, where there are hundreds upon hundreds (if not thousands) of dungeons ?
 

Crooked Bee

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And would it be even possible, in a game like skywayrim, where there are hundreds upon hundreds (if not thousands) of dungeons ?

The roguelike approach could work, I think. Something like that thing Daggerfall attempted, except executed in a better way.
 

hiver

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The roguelike approach could work, I think
Yeah, whats that?
Wouldnt be some kind of randomizing creator of dungeons that someone would just program and it would just work fabulously, is it?

Something like that thing Daggerfall attempted, except executed in a better way.
Also skyrim is a modern, pile of money and designers, type of game, with all them production values.
So i dont think mentioning games like skyrim really represents anything in this contest. They have their specific goals to achieve. Specialized, you see.

/
Anyway thats just one bad example, he is right of course, generally.
It seems to me that its not a best design choice with games with a lot of dungeons, since it creates some repetition ultimately which can get boring overall.
And tedious.
A mix would be better, with more advanced dungeons where it would be sensible, instead of everywhere. (he probably mentioned this angle - didnt read the full article yet)
After all not every tomb or hole in the ground should be something intricate, some complex and forcefully structurally engaging contraption.

Then again, we have dungeons that should not look like classic version. And most of the time they arent thought as ones.
Which is a side little perk of a bit of enjoyment i got from BG2, with de arnise keep, spellhold, interplanar sphere and similar locales. Castles or buildings actually being a dungeons to themselves only done so appropriately that they didnt even seem as such at first.

It would be preferable to eventually have all sorts of "places" in the gameworld used, not just classic underground/cave ones, to be these interesting, non linear, engaging "dungeons".
 

Mozgoëbstvo

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Which is a side little perk of a bit of enjoyment i got from BG2, with de arnise keep, spellhold, interplanar sphere and similar locales. Castles or buildings actually being a dungeons to themselves only done so appropriately that they didnt even seem as such at first.

So all sorts of "places" in the gameworld are used, not just classic underground/cave ones, to be these interesting, non linear, engaging "dungeons".

That's the most positive side of BG2 all the gratuitous haters fail to mention. The dungeons were really fun, not to mention aesthetically cool.
 

mondblut

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Anybody who ever seriously pondered over including a teleporter maze in their dungeon gets a ticket to Auschwitz in my book.

Also, invicible walls. Tell me you like them, and I'll find out where you live and rape your little kids in front of you.
 

betamin

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Anybody who ever seriously pondered over including a teleporter maze in their dungeon gets a ticket to Auschwitz in my book.

Also, invicible walls. Tell me you like them, and I'll find out where you live and rape your little kids in front of you.
 

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