Randomly generated loot in Obsidian's games

[Wyrmlord]

Ever since KotOR 2 and right till MotB, every Obsidian game has had randomly generated loot that scales to the player's level.

It sucks. In most games, you have to go out and FIND powerful equipment. Usually you have to save some good amount of money to buy that nice shiny sword that the merchant is selling. But in their games, the equipment comes to you, randomly found in an arbitrary corpse or chest. And it comes to a point where the player thinks, "Oh here's another enchanted sword. Here's another stat boosting armor." And it's especially silly when you find that stuff in the cadavers of dead animals. What is Darth Malak's Lightsaber doing inside a Teren'taek?

And to make it scale to the player's level: oaf! It just takes away the player's chance to find powerful equipment early on by his own initiative. You have fought a high level boss as a low level character, but it only serves to give you worse loot. The player is actually rewarded more for fighting him at a higher level.

This system - it's very artificial and takes all the fun out of exploring and finding stuff. What possible rationale does the developer have for doing something like this?

 

[Lumpy]

MotB has hand placed equipment only, actually.

 

[MetalCraze]

he said right till MotB

but since KotOR2 and right till MotB is... NWN2?
oh you faggy Obsidian why so many of your games have loot scaling

 

[Starwars]

From what I can remember of NWN2, most of the best loot is definetely handplaced. But there is also random loot, that definetely scales up to fairly valuable items.
Hopefully SoZ will be good in that area. We know enemies will not scale, hopefully loot will be kept low-magic and handplaced, so that it feels special when you do find something great.

In terms of bad loot, I actually think Mass Effect is the worst I've played, and that includes Oblivion.

 

[Joe Krow]

Random loot can be done well. First off, it should scale to the enemies you face not to the player. Second, it should leave the possibility of exceptional items.

It seems appropriate to use it in a D&D computer game since that's how it is in the PnP version.

 

[Gragt]

I liked the system in Icewind Dale where some containers would contain loot choosen from a random list, so for exemple you would get a bow or a sword, no level scaling involved. Of course the drawback is that sometimes one item was better than the other and also you had the chance to get a completely useless item (like a gem or non-enchanted piece of jewelry).

 

[Trash]

But that drawback keeps it at least a little bit interesting when you open lootbox #10009.

I hate level scaling and ridiculous drops. I remember opening randomn containers in the starter city of BG2: TOB and finding stuff worth 100's of goldpieces. Perhaps it's just me though. I just don't see the fun in item hoarding and power gaming. Gimme a setting with reasonable weapons and magic/tech and hand placed items anyday.

In terms of bad loot, I actually think Mass Effect is the worst I've played, and that includes Oblivion.

Agreed, though that's probably has got a lot to do with the blandness and sameness of the loot.

 

[Texas Red]

Loot is irrelevant in Obsidian/Bioware games anyway. Combat is so easy that there is no desire to find something better.

 

[Raapys]

Loot in KOTOR1 is definitely alot better than in KOTOR2. Mass Effect loot was so boring I fell asleep everytime I picked something up.

 

[Wyrmlord]

Gimme a setting with reasonable weapons and magic/tech and hand placed items anyday.

I agree. I am playing Betrayal At Krondor right now, and the more powerful weapons are hard to find. I remember going into a particular dungeon that was quite large, and in the middle of it all, there was one bandit who had a Goblin Stickler. It was only a few points stronger than the typical Kingdom broadsword. And yet finding such a weapon feels so immensely satisfying, because it is kept rare in the game.

I remember that Icewind Dale got pretty annoying later on, because the game started bombarding you with the most powerful possible weapons and armour. So much that it was all fit for only disposing off to merchants for money, and then soon the player had a disposable amount of money. Soon, finding loot, selling stuff, and going through inventory becomes a really mundane activity, when it should be fun.

 

[Jasede]

Oh, that's something we never bring up when discussing BaK: the great loot-curve and placement and scale. Yes, you -can- go get some of the best weapons in chapter 1 - if you fight terribly difficult encounters and know where to look. Everything is placed so sweetly that it makes exploring and figuring out these chest puzzles a real joy. BaK is the best game with "low loot levels" I know, and that's likely because things are kept special, rare and hand-placed.

 

[spiwak]

Loot is irrelevant in Obsidian/Bioware games anyway. Combat is so easy that there is no desire to find something better.

True of games KotOR and on, anyways. I'm replaying KotOR now and it amazes me how often I never have to even switch characters, or pause, to get through even big fights. I don't really remember that being the case in BG2.

 

[Texas Red]

Loot is irrelevant in Obsidian/Bioware games anyway. Combat is so easy that there is no desire to find something better.

True of games KotOR and on, anyways. I'm replaying KotOR now and it amazes me how often I never have to even switch characters, or pause, to get through even big fights. I don't really remember that being the case in BG2.

Indeed. My take is that the business suits with zero experience in gaming believed that even minor challenge can put an end to sales.

 

[Lumpy]

Loot is irrelevant in Obsidian/Bioware games anyway. Combat is so easy that there is no desire to find something better.

True of games KotOR and on, anyways. I'm replaying KotOR now and it amazes me how often I never have to even switch characters, or pause, to get through even big fights. I don't really remember that being the case in BG2.

Indeed. My take is that the business suits with zero experience in gaming believed that even minor challenge can put an end to sales.

If you're going to make combat so easy, why the fuck not make it an adventure game and be done with it?

 

[fastpunk]

If you're going to make combat so easy, why the fuck not make it an adventure game and be done with it?

Because 'RPG' is sort of a marketing buzzword.

 

[Relayer71]

Loot is irrelevant in Obsidian/Bioware games anyway. Combat is so easy that there is no desire to find something better.

So true.

And somewhat unrelated: loot on corpses make sense but I never understood the need for containers/chests EVERYWHERE like in the KOTORS.

It's one of those things that easily pulls you out of any immersion not to mention it's tedious. You would think that with Force powers you could extend your hand and open every container in an area at once and have all the loot come to you.

But back to the main theme - level scaled loot sucks.

 

[racofer]

Loot is irrelevant in Obsidian/Bioware games anyway. Combat is so easy that there is no desire to find something better.

So true.

And somewhat unrelated: loot on corpses make sense but I never understood the need for containers/chests EVERYWHERE like in the KOTORS.

It's one of those things that easily pulls you out of any immersion not to mention it's tedious. You would think that with Force powers you could extend your hand and open every container in an area at once and have all the loot come to you.

But back to the main theme - level scaled loot sucks.

Maybe it will be implemented in future RPG's or K3 if it ever comes out. Force Loot, ala Freelancer.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Something like that is already in Mass Effect, I think.

 

[Texas Red]

Why do you even have a room with 3 containers/chests instead of 1 that holds everything? This makes no damned sense.

ToEE handled at least loot finely. Every dungeon had only a few chests instead of hundreds of them that all require lockpicking or bashing.

 

[Murk]

^ 'sept the temple itself, there was usually 4 or 5 chests per level, but they were guarded by some bigguns so that's cool

 

[Xi]

It seems like many modern games fail when they apply their loot/level systems because the effort to achieve the loot isn't challenging enough and the reward in a scaled world is too common to be considered a reward in the first place. I think they apply these systems because they save time and are easier to manage in terms of balance. Obviously they constitute bad game design and reinforce the reasons a website like RPGCodex would have so much disdain and hate for the industry.

Essentially, it is a very obvious example of what is often referred to as "Dumbing Down."

The best system would provide both a hand placed system, one that offers designed challenges and great rewards for difficult efforts, and a scaled system that provides basic rewards and ensures a minimal level of balance. Doesn't it just kill the immersion when you enter an item shop at level one, only to find the most basic equipment, and then you notice that the shop gains new equipment as you level up? This entirely defeats the purpose of working toward an equipment goal, and removes an RPG beloved feature. What gives?

Edit: Plus, we often hear developers talking about how "modern gamers don't know what they want in a game," isn't that the biggest croc of shit you've ever heard? I think I've seen numerous developers with this view now, and I think this is one of the only industries in the world where designers can get away with this stuff. It's just rhetoric that supports their bad game designs and lackluster implementations. Gamers know exactly what they want, it is the developers who are clueless anymore.

 

[Volourn]

"Why do you even have a room with 3 containers/chests instead of 1 that holds everything? This makes no damned sense. "

Yeah. Why do people have more than 1 dresser in their bedrooms? Only need one.

LAME.

 

[spiwak]

Why do you even have a room with 3 containers/chests instead of 1 that holds everything? This makes no damned sense.

ANSWER: Beef up that "40+ hour campaign". How much of the time in KotOR was just raiding plasteel cylinders and metal boxes and footlockers?

Not that Fallout/Planescape/whatever was any better in this regard, but you'd think things would change after y2k or something.

 

[Murk]

"Why do you even have a room with 3 containers/chests instead of 1 that holds everything? This makes no damned sense. "

Yeah. Why do people have more than 1 dresser in their bedrooms? Only need one.

LAME.

if two are empty - yes, you only need one - a lot of games have empty containers or a container with a single crap item