You hate Bethesda, here is a link.

[Excrément]

http://spong.com/article/9721/Elder+Scr ... ens?cb=894

This link will anger a lot of people over here.

By perfectly balanced, we are particularly referring to the tutorial section of Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion. Now this is usually the stage at which we - and many other gamers too, we suspect - become turned off role-playing games. We are just not that interested in spending time reading and learning all about bafflingly complex systems of character stats and suchlike. We want to play games, and learning about statistics is about as much fun as, well, doing mathematics.

Suffice to say that once you have entered the actual gameworld itself, you realise that here is something important and iconic and all of those types of words. Here, dare we say it, is perhaps one of the most important PC games since Half Life 2, if it’s marketed correctly, that is. Oh, and of course, the fact that its also coming out on Xbox 360 should help it deservedly go to the ever fickle and elusive ‘mass market’.

spokesperson for Take 2, who are publishing the game in the UK, had the following to say about the marketing plans for the game today: “We will definitely be trying to appeal to a much wider audience outside of just the RPG fans. There's huge interest from all sections of the press and public at the moment, particularly in the 360 version, and we fully intend to reach as many people as possible through our PR and marketing efforts.”

The game, according to another of SPOnG’s RPG-fanatic friends, is “...so much more than ‘the sequel to Morrowind’ – it should be billed as the next Half Life 2… It’s a bloody monster. Forget Shadow of the Colossus. Just look at this game and Sony’s effort really does pale into insignificance in comparison in terms of pure aesthetic beauty of the gameworld. And the fact that it’s also coming out on 360 should really hopefully make it appeal to a much wider group of people than RPG’s traditionally do.”

I agree this game is for a wider auience than RPG gamers but that's why it is a good game, Bethesda is progressively inventing a new concept : a mix of RPG + FPS wiith swords + Adventure games. that's why I will love this game and that's why all the people over here already hate Bethesda.

You call that "dumb-down", I think it is just a revolution.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Another OMG!THIS GAEM IS SO AWSOME!!! preview. Where are the facts? Details? Anything specific?

This quote is funny though:

We are just not that interested in spending time reading and learning all about bafflingly complex systems of character stats and suchlike. We want to play games, and learning about statistics is about as much fun as, well, doing mathematics

 

[Oarfish]

We are just not that interested in spending time reading

bafflingly complex systems

We need a retarded games journalist bingo card.

We want to play games, and learning about statistics is about as much fun as

Unless of course, they are sports statistics, which the slack jawed masses that bethesda are trying to court seem to be fascinated by.

 

[WouldBeCreator]

Unless of course, they are sports statistics, which the slack jawed masses that bethesda are trying to court seem to be fascinated by.

Yeah, people who like sports are dumb, people who like D&D are smart. Gee, I thought we'd gotten past middle school fantasies by now . . . .

 

[Oarfish]

Yeah, people who like sports are dumb, people who like D&D are smart. Gee, I thought we'd gotten past middle school fantasies by now

A little facile, agreed, should have dropped the slack jawed. Championship Manager - which is not much more than a glorified spreadsheet sells by the bloody millions, so I doubt complexity is necessarily a turn off.

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

Another OMG!THIS GAEM IS SO AWSOME!!! preview. Where are the facts? Details? Anything specific?

This quote is funny though:

We are just not that interested in spending time reading and learning all about bafflingly complex systems of character stats and suchlike. We want to play games, and learning about statistics is about as much fun as, well, doing mathematics

You are not that picky when the news is negative!

 

[Nutcracker]

The fact is, the pubescent (or pre-pubescent) ADD retard of today has all the intelligence of a marine sponge, with a similar attention span. However, they do have money (their parents' anyway), therefore it does make economic sense to target this market. Sadly this will lead to an escalating number of sub-optimal games, and a butchering of many of our favourite franchises. The blurring of boundaries between console and PC gaming is the worst thing to ever happen to the PC gaming genre in general, but especially RPGs.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Another OMG!THIS GAEM IS SO AWSOME!!! preview. Where are the facts? Details? Anything specific?

This quote is funny though:

We are just not that interested in spending time reading and learning all about bafflingly complex systems of character stats and suchlike. We want to play games, and learning about statistics is about as much fun as, well, doing mathematics

You are not that picky when the news is negative!

You want me to post it? Anything for you, sugar.

 

[Excrément]

Another OMG!THIS GAEM IS SO AWSOME!!! preview. Where are the facts? Details? Anything specific?

This quote is funny though:

We are just not that interested in spending time reading and learning all about bafflingly complex systems of character stats and suchlike. We want to play games, and learning about statistics is about as much fun as, well, doing mathematics

This thread is not about the facts and details from the preview (in fact it is not a preview, they say the preview is coming) but about the genre of the game.

I just said I agree with the journalists about the wider audience.
And I say I am happy that this game isn't just a RPG. I think this game may succed to be more than an RPG without dumbing down the roleplaying part of the game.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

You call that "dumb-down", I think it is just a revolution.

Perhaps it is a revolution of sorts in their own cosmos in the sense that it may be the first game they develop inhouse which is wider in influences and wider in appeal, and this may revolutionize their design methods and expectations of future games and gaming endeavours. It's no surprise that several games in the past which have been developed with a clear notion of what gaming conventions are and how they can be manipulated to improve them have succeed critically (even if not commercially).

But such a choice - of creating a game experience that is set on divergent, rather than convergent, influences and appeal- cannot be considered a revolution outside of that context and on its own because it isn't anything particularly new to the industry, nor to gamers; it isn't the first time games or game franchises are taken into different directions or are developed with considerably different gaming conventions that usually defined them.

However, you should note that some of the voices that denounce its 'dumbing down' are being heard because these people don't believe - in large part thanks to Bethesda's own decisions and reasonings - that what is at stake here is a genuine or worthwhile change to the game's design, or one that is intent on expanding its gameplay value so it appeals to more gamers but rather to neuter it to achieve the same. Appeal trough simplification of content rather than intrincancy or by expanding what was already very much is 'dumbing down', wheter you are willing to accept it or not.

 

[OverrideB1]

I am unmoved by "gosh wow" previews for any game - especially when the journalists involved make asinine comments like that. But that's the norm nowadays, accentuate the positive - regardless of how mediocre something is, it's got to have that "gosh wow" factor. And there are always unbiased journalists/previewers who will provide it.

I have no doubt that Oblivion will be a good game of its kind and will sell bucketloads to people who think that "RPG" on the label makes it so. And I have no dount that Bethesda will churn out another game wherein the "really complex bits" are made even simpler for those who couldn't get to grips with "all the freedom": TESV - Tamriel on Rails whereby every single character class will be able to do absolutely everything and any decisions you make have zero-effect on the gameworld - oh wait, they've already got that bit down pat, haven't they?

I've pretty much lost the will to view any more puffery for this next-gen RPG that is neither "next generation" nor a "RPG".

Edit: Oh, and to the OP. While I can't speak for anyone else, I don't "hate" Bethesda. Aside from the stupidity of "hating" a corporate entity, I have no feelings one way or another for Bethesda. What they've done to what was once a fine example of a freeform role-playing game is another matter entirely...

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

And I say I am happy that this game isn't just a RPG.

Yet in its attempt to be more than one it has probably become less than one. And that is the reason why it faces considerable criticism around here, and why your optimism isn't shared by others.

 

[Thrawn05]

We are just not that interested in spending time reading and learning all about bafflingly complex systems of character stats and suchlike. We want to play games, and learning about statistics is about as much fun as, well, doing mathematics

Hey, it's Bethesda's Mantra!

 

[Rune_74]

vault dweller

Why even argue with this guy anymore...he's kinda like a crazed crack addict with how he looks for anything negative from sites noone has ever heard of...how the hell does he find it?

Somehow I think this relates back to bethesda getting the fallout liscense he is still mad about this....

And the childish way you put up the positive news post makes you look even worse then normal and if anyone is running this site they would do well to curtail your antics.

The only reason I come to this site anymore is to laugh...it used to be interesting but now its a bunch of attitudes living off each other like leeches.

 

[WouldBeCreator]

The fact is, the pubescent (or pre-pubescent) ADD retard of today has all the intelligence of a marine sponge, with a similar attention span. However, they do have money (their parents' anyway), therefore it does make economic sense to target this market. Sadly this will lead to an escalating number of sub-optimal games, and a butchering of many of our favourite franchises.

Shrug, this is what washed out old-timers have been saying about every change in every media forever. I've always viewed the stat-keeping aspects of AD&D as a big step backwards for children's make-believe. When I was growing up -- early days of D&D, when they had that cheesy manual where the cleric dies by magic missiles that look like arrows -- we played "narration games" unconstrained by rulesets, dice, and paper. Of course, it later occured to me that rules and dice and paper help keep things fair, but even then they were a necessary evil. Rolling the dice to decide who gets initiative, how someone responds to you, etc., always struck me as monumentally stupid, as long as the DM (or "narrator") could just try to play fair.

To the extent we're able to get rid of all the statistics, arcane rules (I still don't entirely grasp THAC0), and numbers, and go back to tell a story, it's a good thinig. Of course, I'm not surprised that those who learned under the rigid ruleset system resent seeing it done away with. It's exactly the same as when people who learned adventure games under the Sierra text parser system (AGI, wasn't it?) got up in arms over the icon-based system introduced in KQ5, or when they claimed that LucasArts had "dumbed down" its games by getting rid of impossible situations and death as a concession to "young kids." But now, everyone heralds the icon-based games as by far the best adventure games and praises LucasArts above all. I've seen the same argument when RPGs added automapping and text adventures got rid of "maze of twisting passages, all alike." Same with when RTS games added building queues.

There may be problems with removing *fun* features to games, just ranting about how today's whippersnappers are stupid and the games of yore were hardcore ain't impressing me.

The blurring of boundaries between console and PC gaming is the worst thing to ever happen to the PC gaming genre in general, but especially RPGs.

I do agree with that. The PC has many UI advantages and console-ports that don't take account of them are seriously hurting things.

 

[Excrément]

And I say I am happy that this game isn't just a RPG.

Yet in its attempt to be more than one it has probably become less than one. And that is the reason why it faces considerable criticism around here, and why your optimism isn't shared by others.

I really don't care my optimism is not share by others.

 

[Vultok]

Rune, how about we just make you the news poster?

I think that'd be a smashing idea. Then we can be assured that we won't have to read anything that comes from websites outside of Gamespy, IGN, etc, etc. Great idea.

 

[Rune_74]

what?

There are other sites then gamepsy ign etc that have positive posts, VD justs likes to ignore them.

Do you honestly think posting the way he is posting is not motivated by an agenda? When you post news stories that further your view and ignore the others it kinda makes you a joke.

All I am saying is that we have how many stories started by vault dweller in the last couple days? Is there nothing else to report?

This is not the rpg codex...this is the bitch and whine codex...where even independent game makers don't give a shit what you say.

 

[Thrawn05]

There may be problems with removing *fun* features to games, just ranting about how today's whippersnappers are stupid and the games of yore were hardcore ain't impressing me.

Actually, it goes beyond video games. Children in general no longer have any real type of imagination since there is no need for it. Everything is explained away. Take a look at the toy section at the store, every single teddy-bear and doll and such comes with a name. There is no longer a need for a child to give that doll a name anymore. So all a child does now is soak things up like a sponge without any type of output.

Little things like that are all over the place and it is becoming a problem.

 

[Thrawn05]

Re: what?

There are other sites then gamepsy ign etc that have positive posts, VD justs likes to ignore them.

Do you honestly think posting the way he is posting is not motivated by an agenda? When you post news stories that further your view and ignore the others it kinda makes you a joke.

All I am saying is that we have how many stories started by vault dweller in the last couple days? Is there nothing else to report?

This is not the rpg codex...this is the bitch and whine codex...where even independent game makers don't give a shit what you say.

I think this quote from VD can answer your concerns.

I don't think the 3 negative previews are more reliable than the 12 positive ones.

They are reliable not because they are negative, but because, unlike many other reviews, they provide details. Ironically, that's what makes them negative.

Surely you can see a difference between, say, "combat is great!" or "sneaking works awesome!" and this:

Combat is still entertaining, if somewhat shallow. The player is given two attacks, a normal swing, and a power-swing, which you charge up before hopefully delivering a solid shot to your opponent that will inflict extra damage, or stun them if they were blocking. Fighting against equally well armed enemies generally felt good, as I had to judge my attacks and wait for openings before launching into the offensive. Against “lesser” opponents, like Goblins, things had an unfortunate tendency to degenerate into a whirling, button-mashing hack-fest.

This brings me to the stealth system and the enemy detection AI. A special stealth icon has been introduced for Oblivion that turns different shades, darker or lighter as you go from undetected to seen. It’s nice, and it allows for some sneaking, but, unfortunately for those people out there who might want to play the part of a stealthy assassin in this game, detection seemed to be an all-or-nothing gambit. Less pleasantly, some of the enemies seem to be rather deaf, as I managed to get into a hand-to-hand battle with two goblins, with a goblin mage no more than 15 feet away, and the goblin mage never even noticed anything out of the ordinary.

 

[JPK]

This is not the rpg codex...this is the bitch and whine codex...where even independent game makers don't give a shit what you say.

Stop whining and go back to TES forums, they understand you there...

 

[Helioth]

Odd that: Todd Howard, executive producer of The Elder Scrolls series, has said of Elder Scrolls IV that, "With Oblivion, we're taking the idea of a virtual fantasy world as far as it will go."

When he was like, "omgz no i hope it willd be bettur then oblibion. u make the decisive decision"

Oh and Rune_74, C'mon, raise you're standards a bit, I just lowered mine. . .

 

[Vault Dweller]

Re: vault dweller

Why even argue with this guy anymore...he's kinda like a crazed crack addict with how he looks for anything negative from sites noone has ever heard of...how the hell does he find it?

Are you talking about me or the guy who actually started this thread and found the preview?

And the childish way you put up the positive news post makes you look even worse then normal and if anyone is running this site they would do well to curtail your antics.

Saint is the guy in charge. I'm just the hired help, so to speak. Write him an angry letter, maybe he will listen.

This is not the rpg codex...this is the bitch and whine codex...where even independent game makers don't give a shit what you say.

You better do something about this awful situation then!

 

[Rune_74]

jpk

ok that made sense....what I said there was independent game makers even hate this site....

it means that what you are trying to say doesn't get listened to.

simple.


You know....I know there will be problems with oblivion, I have yet to play any roleplaying game that didn't have problems...and I have been playing alot...recently even going back to games I played as a kid...and you know what? They had major problems that many of you seem to think they never had.

 

[mathboy]

Re: vault dweller

Why even argue with this guy anymore...he's kinda like a crazed crack addict with how he looks for anything negative from sites noone has ever heard of...how the hell does he find it?

Somehow I think this relates back to bethesda getting the fallout liscense he is still mad about this....

And the childish way you put up the positive news post makes you look even worse then normal and if anyone is running this site they would do well to curtail your antics.

The only reason I come to this site anymore is to laugh...it used to be interesting but now its a bunch of attitudes living off each other like leeches.

Old quotes:

Well I've been reading these forums for awhile....can't say I agree with alot of things that are said but oh well...

Do you realize how stupid many of you sound on here?

YOu guys are such complete idiots....vault dweller is so fucking stupid and it shows every time he posts and all you fucking retarded teenagers following....have you played the game? I have its actually cool....none of you like rpgs...and none of you act like you are above 12....big surprise since the internet lets you be retards.

Congrats on evolution.

Then a bunch of Cleve-defending.

Balor you really should grow up.

If you don't like what the guy says fine, but to insinuate harm to a person because of it....

Man where are your parents and don't they monitor what you do?

Children should not be allowed on computers without supervision.


Rune

oh and Mr smilefacedude...I commend your patience and proffessionalism when dealing with winners like these. Good luck on the game and keep up the great work.

(added bold)

Then posts about the greatness of Minions of Mirth.

And now we've catched up with the story of Rune_74.