Microtransactions in MMO games.

[Xenich]

"No offense, but you're a piece of shit that I hate."

So there are pieces of shit that you like?

 

[Ninjerk]

When they feel good coming out

 

[Xenich]

When they feel good coming out

You have shit that goes in? Yeah, you are one messed up person.

 

[Ranselknulf]

I wouldn't hold EQ, even in it's original incarnations, up as a shining example of what a mmo should be.

Was it better than what we have today? sure. Is it what games should be striving to become? no.

Some of the mmo design decisions that lead to the current model of game play arose from issues with the models of older generation mmo's.

Micro-transactions just helped guide the evolution of mmo models to what we have now because of the profit motive.

 

[Xenich]

I wouldn't hold EQ, even in it's original incarnations, up as a shining example of what a mmo should be.

Was it better than what we have today? sure. Is it what games should be striving to become? no.

Some of the mmo design decisions that lead to the current model of game play arose from issues with the models of older generation mmo's.

Micro-transactions just helped guide the evolution of mmo models to what we have now because of the profit motive.

Oh I am not. EQ had some extremely poor designs to it. WoW attempted to answer to some of those problems on its release and I thought it did a fair job in some cases, but lost out in others. Other games over time have provided interesting features and content as well as some really amazing innovations in game systems, but... the one thing that has consistently gotten worse over those years is player base "entitlement". Not only in expecting game play to be easy and provide them with constant easy success and reward, but in the expectation that game content should just be free... because... well.. it should be! /boggle

That is what I think has resulted in microtransaction systems. Remember Sony used to fight it constantly, but... then... realizing the bulk of the player base loves to cheat and have shit just handed to them... well... why not profit off it.

"A fool and their money are easily parted"

 

[Ranselknulf]

Well, i think part of the rationale is: "People are going to buy in game shit regardless via ebay / third party sites, why shouldn't we sanction the sales, make transactions easier, and take a cut of the profit".

Trust me when I say it isn't only people that feel "entitled" to hand outs that engaged in microtransactions, even before item shops in games were a thing.

That said, I don't think the current micro-transaction systems are good, nor have I tried an existing micro-transaction system that I thought elevated a mmo's gameplay.

 

[Xenich]

Well, i think part of the rationale is: "People are going to buy in game shit regardless via ebay / third party sites, why shouldn't we sanction the sales, make transactions easier, and take a cut of the profit".

Trust me when I say it isn't only people that feel "entitled" to hand outs that engaged in microtransactions, even before item shops in games were a thing.

That said, I don't think the current micro-transaction systems are good, nor have I tried an existing micro-transaction system that I thought elevated a mmo's gameplay.

Thing is, when they do that, notice how they start designing the content to cater to that sale model while before... when they fought against it, that wasn't design focus.

It is bad enough you have players screwing up the systems, we don't need the developers designing as shit right out of the gate.

Personally, all these idiots who like this sort of thing... they are a fad. They will burn themselves out. There is a reason why the console market has had times where it died out when there was no longer anything "shiny" to dazzle the little monkeys with.

The unfortunate thing is that they will burn the industry to the ground before they are done.

 

[Mangoose]

As for AI, they CAN make very difficult and challenging AI, but... people don't want that. Go look at the numerous games out there that started with difficult content and look at the pools of tears from those whining in the forums. AI isn't the problem, it is making dumbed down games for a player base that wants a movie or glorified chat room, not a game.

Bleh.

 

[Lhynn]

My first experience with multiplayer games was a MUD (Unless you count Pong). Graphical games as such didn't exist back then. I played Meridian 59 for a bit, then Beta'd UO and played it for a while. Then did EQ early beta and played that game for quite a while. I pretty much alpha/betad most of the early MMOs. Lets see... there was AC, AC2, AO, Lineage 1/2, EQ2, Vanguard, DDO, LoTRO, AoC, etc... I beta's WoW as well, and have played pretty much all of the PTP MMOs since then. As I mentioned, I did a FTP evaluation of games for a while seeing if I could find something worthy (Allods, PE, etc... Basically, I went through the list of MMORPG.com).

Im tired holy trinity bullshit, its a flawed concept that needs to die to give room to new combat mechanics and party dynamics. And your backlog is kind of pathetic.
Lineage and lineage 2 are asian games. Lineage 1 i think died, not sure, Lineage 2 actually went f2p with a very good and fair model, too bad the gameplay went to shit.
DDO i played, was cool, LoTRO as i understand was the same. A fair model that allowed non paying players to unlock all content, too bad it was actually hard to pull off and not worth it.
But yeah, wheres the realm of the mad god, wheres uncharted waters online, world of tanks, city of heroes, etc. there is a long list of mmos with unique mechanics and gameplay that even if as a whole were shit, individual elements of those games are worth rescuing.

There is nothing healthy about it, and it is called "cheating", not "convenience".

Convenience is not cheating doe, in the same way that getting a better chair to play poker cant be called cheating. I can see your point tho, but gotta pay the bills somehow. And if you can do it while allowing a bigger number of players into your game, its win-win.

Are you saying EQ expansions like (Kunark, Velious, SoL, etc...) are glorified patches? If so, you have a major entitlement complex as those expansions were huge and filled with an enormous amount of content to which were fairly priced as an expansion (about 40 bucks). Is it the WoW expansions? I didn't care for BC, but it was by no means "small", nor was the one after that (Lich King). Now Cata may have been a gimmick, but that isn't the older system. Things changed with gaming, more specifically when they started trying to push the stupid "free content" crap and FTP started to show up. I mean, when you have people stupid enough to pay for digital property, getting them to pay box price for worthless nothingness DLC type content, is well... a no brainier.
Thing is, a company that deals in Micro-transactions thinks its players are fucking morons, easy prey, stupid little lemmings they can sell bits and bytes to as if it had any real value. Heck, they don't even have to create anymore for these foolish kids these days as the idiots will line up and pay tens to hundreds of dollars for digital items that are multiplied with a simple copy command. There is no demand for quality products or fair value of money because anyone who thinks buying these digital trinkets has no fucking concept of money value anyway.
So don't expect these companies to provide you anything but gimmick after gimmick. The player base has shown them they can make enormous amounts of money selling cheats and digital trinkets. Oh and this isn't the first time, they did the same with the console crowd many years ago... you are probably too young to remember, but they called it the "game genie".
As I said, you and I have completely different views on games. I from before the industry was turned to shit, you of the current shit industry. Everything you find acceptable concerning this, I despise. No offense, but you are the problem of why games are what they are today. /shrug

Yes, im saying that mmos should be responsible for improving on their own or dying. WoW making profits that could rival a small country and you are telling me they can demand money from their players on top of their monthly wage? im sorry but it sounds like you are not as smart as you think you are... In any other business venture to keep growing and expanding its owners that have to reinvest their own capital or risk dying out. Why do you think everyone and their grandma wanted in on the wow wagon? i could say you are right about EQ, for a number of reasons like it being one of the first, being extremely niche, treating with new technology, etc. But why even bring it up? Its not like its a product of this generation of mmos, which is whats being discussed here.

Depends on the company that deals with micro-transactions, EvE respects their audience, a title that is sorely lacking in your backlog as one of the few beacons of innovation the mmo industry has seen in the last decade. But they also understand that some people have disposable income and dont mind spending their money on a monocle or some other retarded item so they can bear to look at their characters for another 100 hours. Who gives a shit? besides you i mean.
The potential for companies exploiting their costumers is always there, and its good to be wary, but discarding everything only because of conjectures and prejudice? Why do you even bother to discuss from that position in the first place?

 

[Xenich]

Im tired holy trinity bullshit, its a flawed concept that needs to die to give room to new combat mechanics and party dynamics. And your backlog is kind of pathetic.
Lineage and lineage 2 are asian games. Lineage 1 i think died, not sure, Lineage 2 actually went f2p with a very good and fair model, too bad the gameplay went to shit.
DDO i played, was cool, LoTRO as i understand was the same. A fair model that allowed non paying players to unlock all content, too bad it was actually hard to pull off and not worth it.
But yeah, wheres the realm of the mad god, wheres uncharted waters online, world of tanks, city of heroes, etc. there is a long list of mmos with unique mechanics and gameplay that even if as a whole were shit, individual elements of those games are worth rescuing.

I didn't list every game I played. Pay attention to what I wrote. I have played most of the games you listed. Also, I am not arguing for the holy trinity. My arguments are concerning depth of content, difficulty, complexity, etc... EQs questing wasn't hand held, it took thinking, experimenting, etc... Even EQ2s questing which dumbed it down a bit is far better than any game out there (ie hidden quests in books, drops, clickables in dungeons and areas, etc...). As for the holy trinity, I had hoped that The Secret World was going to escape that with their design, but instead they listened to the WoW players whining on the forums during release and shifted to that focus. That said, getting away from the "trinity" doesn't mean make every class able to do the same thing or dumb down the content so any class can do it. That has been the solution for many MMOs today.

Convenience is not cheating doe, in the same way that getting a better chair to play poker cant be called cheating. I can see your point tho, but gotta pay the bills somehow. And if you can do it while allowing a bigger number of players into your game, its win-win.

It is cheating and the chair analogy is not a good one as the chair has nothing to do with the game rules or advantage, while in these MMOs, they are getting benefits that are advantages, be it exp potions, gear, consumables to lessen difficulty, etc... all of which are advantages. When you allow people to pay money to cheat the games rules, it is cheating. As for getting bigger numbers, well... that is what they do these days, they go for numbers and then try to appeal to those "bigger" numbers which results in a game designed for the lowest common denominator and nobody is happy with it. I think we have enough of those games. I would be happy if we had more niche MMOs designed for a certain play style. We have enough catering to the bored and lazy players.

Yes, im saying that mmos should be responsible for improving on their own or dying. WoW making profits that could rival a small country and you are telling me they can demand money from their players on top of their monthly wage? im sorry but it sounds like you are not as smart as you think you are... In any other business venture to keep growing and expanding its owners that have to reinvest their own capital or risk dying out. Why do you think everyone and their grandma wanted in on the wow wagon? i could say you are right about EQ, for a number of reasons like it being one of the first, being extremely niche, treating with new technology, etc. But why even bring it up? Its not like its a product of this generation of mmos, which is whats being discussed here.

Depends on the company that deals with micro-transactions, EvE respects their audience, a title that is sorely lacking in your backlog as one of the few beacons of innovation the mmo industry has seen in the last decade. But they also understand that some people have disposable income and dont mind spending their money on a monocle or some other retarded item so they can bear to look at their characters for another 100 hours. Who gives a shit? besides you i mean.
The potential for companies exploiting their costumers is always there, and its good to be wary, but discarding everything only because of conjectures and prejudice? Why do you even bother to discuss from that position in the first place?

Are you high? Seriously, you are all over the place.

Yeah, sorry, discussing with you is a bit taxing and from your responses, it appears pointless as well.

 

[Lhynn]

- You listed all samey games that kinda played the same, none of your titles had anything new and unique, rather stuff that was done well enough.

- If its lessening difficulty is not convenience, its power. For example a town portal is a convenient item, an exp boost is only convenient if it allows you to trample on other people that dont use it, if you never see them till you and them both reach the same power stage, then its merely convenience. gear is not convenience, its power, unless its basic, in which case its worthless and no one will buy it.

- Numbers and appealing to lowest common denominator? Nope, only if the developer caves in and compromises its vision, thats another deal entirely. It does tend to happen tho, but not in every mmo. for example Lineage 2, or realms of the mad god never did.

- high for what? all expansions in lineage 2 have been free so far, if they can how come wow cant? and we are talking massive overhauls, new continents, etc.

- Micro-transactions are not all bad, you are biased against them, therefore yes, it is pointless to argue with you till you get rid of that stupid bias.

Simple enough for ya? i can probably use drawings too if you want, im not very good at it but im sure it will be easier to follow.

Q: are you the son of hiver and crispy? unno why i get vibes from them.

 

[Gregz]

I spent most of my MMORPG time playing EQ, WoW, and Anarchy Online.

WoW did a very very good job of smoothing the interface/learning curve/system requirements to broaden accessibility, but in doing so they did create an atmosphere of ease. I don't like the word entitlement, but WoW was the perfect blend of minimal challenge for maximum perceived gain. That's a drug that isn't easy to sober up from. Going back to old-EQ, UO, or other hard-edge MMOs just isn't going to happen commercially...the private servers are there for the die-hards, but commercially on a massive scale, I can't see those kinds of games ever returning.

I am seeing a lot of development and money being put into F2P browser/portable/facebook games however, and the system is a major step back for most players. If you are foolish enough to pour money into these games they have you hooked because you are literally invested, not just with your time, but with your money.

It's a very quick way for indie shops to make quick cash however, and it's all server-side so hacking, cheating, and piracy are non-issues...and there's no investment (box price + install + high system reqs) or risk up front for players as most of these games require no installation and you are up and running in a minute or less.

 

[Xenich]

- You listed all samey games that kinda played the same, none of your titles had anything new and unique, rather stuff that was done well enough.

- If its lessening difficulty is not convenience, its power. For example a town portal is a convenient item, an exp boost is only convenient if it allows you to trample on other people that dont use it, if you never see them till you and them both reach the same power stage, then its merely convenience. gear is not convenience, its power, unless its basic, in which case its worthless and no one will buy it.

- Numbers and appealing to lowest common denominator? Nope, only if the developer caves in and compromises its vision, thats another deal entirely. It does tend to happen tho, but not in every mmo. for example Lineage 2, or realms of the mad god never did.

- high for what? all expansions in lineage 2 have been free so far, if they can how come wow cant? and we are talking massive overhauls, new continents, etc.

- Micro-transactions are not all bad, you are biased against them, therefore yes, it is pointless to argue with you till you get rid of that stupid bias.

Simple enough for ya? i can probably use drawings too if you want, im not very good at it but im sure it will be easier to follow.

Q: are you the son of hiver and crispy? unno why i get vibes from them.

*chuckle*

You are as I said previously, a shining example of the educational system and exactly the target audience for the FTP/PTW systems.

Good luck with that!

 

[Lhynn]

I spent most of my MMORPG time playing EQ, WoW, and Anarchy Online.

WoW did a very very good job of smoothing the interface/learning curve/system requirements to broaden accessibility, but in doing so they did create an atmosphere of ease. I don't like the word entitlement, but WoW was the perfect blend of minimal challenge for maximum perceived gain. That's a drug that isn't easy to sober up from. Going back to old-EQ, UO, or other hard-edge MMOs just isn't going to happen commercially...the private servers are there for the die-hards, but commercially on a massive scale, I can't see those kinds of games ever returning.

I am seeing a lot of development and money being put into F2P browser/portable/facebook games however, and the system is a major step back for most players. If you are foolish enough to poor money into these games they have you hooked because you are literally invested, not just with your time, but with your money.

It's a very quick way for indie shops to make quick cash however, and it's all server-side so hacking, cheating, and piracy are non-issues...and there's no investment (box price + install + high system reqs) or risk up front for players as most of these games require no installation and you are up in running in a minute or less.

was wondering, have you tried the new browser based JA? i have the feeling its awful, but a couple of screenshots made it look like something playable.

 

[Mangoose]

That said, getting away from the "trinity" doesn't mean make every class able to do the same thing or dumb down the content so any class can do it. That has been the solution for many MMOs today.

I agree. The original GW2 idea of using "control" or "debuffs" as another role was great but unfortunately did not all pan out in the implemented game, which turned into a everyone-can-DPS-fest. Getting away from the holy trinity doesn't mean that everyone just does their own thing.. it should mean that you still need to choose a specific strategic role for your group, just that we need more interesting roles than "tanking" and "healing." I also don't mind all classes being able to do the same thing as long as they can't all perform all their roles at once - they should still need to choose and spec for a role and not be able to DPS-tank-heal at the same time.

Interestingly enough, Warhammer Online had highly effective snares, immobilizes, and knockbacks that you can use in PVP. Admittedly not very special since PVP adds more complexity, but those kinds of abilities would be nice in PVE. City of Villains I guess did this (but I didn't play it much), as IIRC there was no tank class and maybe there was no healer class either. It was a lot of debuff and buff stacking, stuff like that.

 

[Xenich]

That said, getting away from the "trinity" doesn't mean make every class able to do the same thing or dumb down the content so any class can do it. That has been the solution for many MMOs today.

I agree. The original GW2 idea of using "control" or "debuffs" as another role was great but unfortunately did not all pan out in the implemented game, which turned into a everyone-can-DPS-fest. Getting away from the holy trinity doesn't mean that everyone just does their own thing.. it should mean that you still need to choose a specific strategic role for your group, just that we need more interesting roles than "tanking" and "healing." I also don't mind all classes being able to do the same thing as long as they can't all perform all their roles at once - they should still need to choose and spec for a role and not be able to DPS-tank-heal at the same time.

Interestingly enough, Warhammer Online had highly effective snares, immobilizes, and knockbacks that you can use in PVP. Admittedly not very special since PVP adds more complexity, but those kinds of abilities would be nice in PVE. City of Villains I guess did this (but I didn't play it much), as IIRC there was no tank class and maybe there was no healer class either. It was a lot of debuff and buff stacking, stuff like that.

That is the funny thing, we used to have those roles. Remember the days of CCing? Remember in EQ where CC was a complete and required role for classes like the enchanter and Bard and to a lesser extent through other abilities with classes that could root, snare, etc...? Heck, pulling was even a class role back then. That is what I was trying to get across about older MMOs. The problem is, most of the youth, or mainstream MMO players don't even know what I am talking about because they either were too young to remember those features in the game or didn't play MMOs back then and you can't look at those MMOs these days because they really are nothing like they were in their early days. In fact, most of them are updated WoW clones.

Also, notice skills/abilities/spells have been streamlined to the point where there is no complexity possible in encounters. Look at their hot bars where only a few skills exist that people spam over and over again. I hate to break it to people, but this isn't new... we used to call these types of games "arcade games" back in the day and they cost a quarter to play.

Personally, I don't think all classes should be able to perform all the roles. I am not sure exactly how this trend began, but I would speculate it was due to the constant whining from people who suffered from "greener" envy which has existed since the beginning of game systems such as these. You don't make people happy by giving them the ability to do everything, you just make them bored.

There was a time when people took pride in their class, abilities, and accomplishments as that class. I know these are games, but we are talking about why people enjoy them, the proverbial "crack" that addicts them to play and being able to identify with your class, feel as if you are more than just a number among every other class, well... that is part of the magic. You can't create that sense of play and pride unless you have elements of game play that allow each class to shine under its own specialty and unique play style. That however is a bad word for people today it seems. The thought of another class being better in something than another just infuriates the narcissists out there and makes the "greener" throw tantrums.

So here we are. Streamlined gaming systems where difficulty is removed, classes are really just mirrors of each other where the "envy" still exists, but is cleverly placed in reach through micro transactions.

I mean, I really don't play MMOs much anymore and I have become extremely cynical about them. I don't have any hope of them being anything more than gimmicks made for extremely fucking stupid people, which is sad. /shrug

 

[Lhynn]

City of heroes/villains had a different mechanic, there were archtypical tanks and healers tho, but building characters gave a lot of freedom to the player, so you could end up with dps that could tank, healers that could dps, jack of all trades, etc.

 

[Mangoose]

Class is just a system, not something to wank over. Classless systems do just fine, as long as they, rather than Idoeverythingatonce, promote the use of roles like in Eve Online, Darkfall, UO, etc. (maybe not UO, I didn't play it and I do hear about the fad of the 'tankmage')

City of heroes/villains had a different mechanic, there were archtypical tanks and healers tho, but building characters gave a lot of freedom to the player, so you could end up with dps that could tank, healers that could dps, jack of all trades, etc.

City of Heroes had a tank class. City of Villains did not. Brutes are not tanks, they're DPSers.

And I have no idea what you mean about jack of trades. CoV maybe - because several of the Villains classes were hybrids - but CoH the classes were set and straightforward. You don't tank with a Scrapper. You tank with the guy named the Tanker.

I've played both, CoH extensively.

 

[Lhynn]

A scrapper could take fairly easily anything but the toughest bosses ASs, a well built defender could as well, probably even better than any tanker ever could.
And power selection and how you built it arguably made up a lot more for your role and how you played the game than archtypes.

Shit, i miss that game.

 

[Xenich]

Class is just a system, not something to wank over. Classless systems do just fine, as long as they, rather than Idoeverythingatonce, promote the use of roles like in Eve Online, Darkfall, UO, etc. (maybe not UO, I didn't play it and I do hear about the fad of the 'tankmage')

Classless systems can work, but they really have to consider interaction dynamics at the skill level between the group and the encounter. Few of the skill based games out there do that. All they end up being are free for all systems to give the feeling of openness and choice. In terms of group dynamics, they have to take it a step further. I was hoping The Secret World was going to do that, they sold that approach early on and their system appeared to support it, but they stopped at that and then ended up making it mostly a class system anyway.

The way I see a skill system being innovative as it concerns group dynamics to create encounters that require combinations of skills, kind of like a card hand to be applied to the encounter in order to deal with the variations of the encounter. This would require the player to have access to all the skills during combat and the encounters would not be simplistic tank/heal/dps, but require various interactions with the environment. It also means that your encounter may not be a monster or another person, but a situation to which you apply the VAST amount of skills in unique ways to defeat the encounters. I think they should also be a combination of application of player skills involving character control dexterity, tactical organization and planning, puzzle solving, etc.... and defeating a dungeon encounter should be something very difficult, not because of gear or face rolling spamming, but by properly applying these aspects as a team in play. It should take time to defeat these encounters with a small margin for error, I would even say... the average group would have to go at the encounters several times before maybe having a chance of beating it. Not only that, but I would design the encounters to be generated in terms of tactics and methods in a random manner so that it would take quite a while for hint sites to find the patterns and even then, that does not guarantee a static approach (ie some of the puzzles in Rift and TSW were mathematically derived, but without the start pattern, which could be a large array to select from, you wouldn't know how to apply the solution. This would mean the group has to try and apply their own solutions to the encounter, no cheating... no face rolling walk through, rather good ole fashioned team work and player ingenuity.

Thing is... very few want something like that. What they want is a participation trophy after a simplistic 5 min run. They don't find enjoyment of solving puzzles, thinking, and figuring out how to succeed through numerous failures. What they want is to be entertained.