Roguey vs the Grognards Thread

[Ninjerk]

Doesn't make it a good game, let alone an RPG. I have a lot of hours in that game, it's a time waster, like an mmo. It's really easy to jump into, but doesn't leave a lasting impression.(Isn't very replayable, and doesn't have a definite end) Also he's right in the Oblivion comparison, but you could also take that as an insult for what is a truly awful game.

There has to be something more here to explain why it sold so many more millions over Oblivion, Fallout 3, and New Vegas, and I'm going to try to find it.

What a moronic way of thinking, popularity doesn't equal quality, that's fallacious. Let me think up a few reasons why it could have sold more: Larger Marketing budget, hype, the company's reputation, brand recognition, Larger market in general(More people playing games, mostly casual.), better visuals, -other asinine bullshit.-
Gameplay wise, it's a time waster, as I said. Like WoW, Flappy Bird, Minecraft, etc, it's easy to pick up and doesn't have much depth or learning curve, maybe it's a good game, I wouldn't know, since in response to sawyer's question: " How do you guys even play da non RPG games? " my answer would be, "I don't.".

Doesn't make it a good game, let alone an RPG.

Josh Sawyer has stated that a)his idea of a good game is different than that of "grognards" and b)he does not care about catering to grognards (classic CRPG fans) when designing games, because their idea of "fun" clearly isn't something that most modern gamers agree on. In other words it's unprofitable to not cater to casuals, and doing the opposite would be an unwise design choice since grognards are a vocal minority not representative of his core audience.

Take away the "in other words" and I think you have it. It says nothing about casuals. Josh has his own idea of what a RPG is, and it doesn't involve adding shit choices that nobody uses just because some self appointed "CRPG experts" want to not use them. I'm a CRPG fan, most of what he said sounds appealing to me. The only thing in the beta that's given me concern so far is how minor an impact the builds have on their derived statistics. I'd like the builds to be balanced, but I'd also like them to play differently, hoping that attributes/stats(Whatever the fuck they're called) are more meaningful at release.

Oblivion did look kind of stupid when I first saw / read about it.. I didn't know about the modding community at that time and I thought it was basically Morrowind converted to a First Person Shooter.. like it looked really stupid. I wasn't wrong either..

Skyrim looked amazing.. call me a popamole faggot but the gameplay videos.. I fell in love with the setting and graphics and it seemed much more polished and atmospheric over oblivion.. It actually is really good after some extensive modding to remove level scaling and make the game hard as balls..

I think the modding community has increased the popularity of these games over time.. The live action trailer looked like a Shill job.. It was wasted money.

Okay, you're a popamole faggot.

 

[HiddenX]

Interesting interview with Josh:
Unmasking the Gamers: JE Sawyer – game developer, biker, and cat lover

Some quotes:

My game development interests are primarily in finding ways to give the player more meaningful choices in how they build and use their characters and in how they can influence the story. I’m also a fervent, possibly fanatical, advocate of strong core mechanics. “Good for an RPG” is an insult, and no player or developer should settle for that level of quality

As for how I became interested in game design, it probably started with my first introduction to CRPGs. At a public library, I saw an older kid playing the original Bard’s Tale on a C=64. I was mesmerized. The older kid, Tony Unate, introduced me to a wide array of CRPGs as well as AD&D. I had already played Basic and Expert D&D, but AD&D is when the obsession truly took flight. Tony and I and our mutual friends debated a lot of the finer points of game design, both in CRPGs and in tabletop games. We sector edited games, modified board games, and altered RPG rules to suit our tastes and sensibilities.

The RPG titles that have influenced me most heavily have been Darklands (exploration and mechanics), Fallout (choice and consequence), and Pool of Radiance (party mechanics and tactical turn-based combat). More recently, I’ve really enjoyed Demon’s Souls and Deus Ex: Human Revolution, especially the latter’s integration of stealth mechanics into an RPG. Outside of the RPG genre, I’m a fan of the Castlevania series (though I just started playing Lords of Darkness), Ninja Gaiden, Devil May Cry, Animal Crossing, Pikmin, Assassin’s Creed, and Katamari Damacy.

For me, RPGs will always be about player choice in the narrative. What type of person they are, how they interact with other characters, and how they can create change in the world. That doesn’t mean I think that RPGs can’t or shouldn’t have things like character advancement systems, character customization, loot, etc., but I think that player choice in the narrative should still be the central focus of how we build worlds and stories.

Storyfag detected.

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

Fuck that faggot.

 

[Infinitron]

WTF, HiddenX is now a full-blown troll.

Here's something that will blow your mind, Watcher: http://i.imgur.com/FWhJa01.png
http://i.imgur.com/Y1DdMDw.png
http://i.imgur.com/6hQkhbX.png

 

[HiddenX]

Calling Wizardry 1 "NOT a CRPG" is trolling my friend.

 

[FeelTheRads]

WTF, Infinitron is now a full-blown Roguey posting Sawyer quotes that actually show his detractors are right.

 

[Infinitron]

Right about what? One of the most mechanics-obsessed RPG designers alive today being a "storyfag"?

 

[FeelTheRads]

About him saying that games like Wizardry are not RPGs anymore (apparently you can lose this monocled status, did you know) if the general public calls other types of games RPGs, which is plain fucking retarded.

And yes, calling player choice in the narrative an essential thing is a kind of storyfaggotry.

 

[Grunker]

Here's something that will blow your mind, Watcher: http://i.imgur.com/FWhJa01.png

:whatisanrpg:

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

Fuck this bitch. I hope he gets AIDS. (Sawyer)

 

[HiddenX]

Actually I hope he gets PoE mechanics done somehow. I think he never had to create a CRPG-mechanics-system by himself so far.

Why I'm so on the edge? Because the current state of PoE is not the direction I hoped for the IE line of games. Just my opinion.

 

[IDtenT]

IE games are all shit to begin with.

Player choice in an RPG isn't storyfaggotry - it's LARPing.

 

[Grunker]

Player choice in an RPG isn't storyfaggotry - it's LARPing.

Not really. LARPing is only if the game doesn't mechanically recognize your input.

 

[HiddenX]

Story and story choices became more and more important over the years. But they are NOT essential for a CRPG.
Every dungeon crawler (old and new) is proofing this.

 

[tuluse]

Player choice in an RPG isn't storyfaggotry - it's LARPing.

Not really. LARPing is only if the game doesn't mechanically recognize your input.

Grunker y u respond to obvious trap?

 

[Darth Roxor]

Here's something that will blow your mind, Watcher: http://i.imgur.com/FWhJa01.png

That did indeed blow my fucking mind.

 

[Grunker]

Player choice in an RPG isn't storyfaggotry - it's LARPing.

Not really. LARPing is only if the game doesn't mechanically recognize your input.

Grunker y u respond to obvious trap?

Because I'm easy?

 

[Monocause]

So let's recap what's going on in this thread.

1. Roguey gets loads of shit because he/she's Roguey and some people, to my astonishment, apparently can't stand that.
2. A screenshot from the PO:E beta showing a clusterfuck of visual effects is used as proof that JE Sawyer's a bad designer (?) but it's still mostly about Roguey.
3. Some tired arguments like balance vs. "imba fun" are rehashed and again used as examples that Sawyer's a bad designer even though it's actually two different design principles that are being discussed and execution of both determines whether a game is good or a piece of shit. It's still about Roguey even though he/she doesn't participate in the thread.

Did I miss anything? Are you guys fucking obsessed? What is wrong with you?

EDIT: I propose that Roguey should get a "objet petit a" tag alongside the sawyerist ones

 

[Grunker]

So let's recap what's going on in this thread.

Roguey wants to end fun and people are some people are very mad about it

simplified version

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Sawyer's definition of RPG is wrong. You see, a RPG is

 

[Menckenstein]

Let's all take a look back on Obsidian's track record with games that are not sequels / someone else's IP.

Ok, well what about the sequels / unoriginal IP?

Well I mean, Sawyer clearly knows what he's talking about / doing, we can forgive him for having no provable track record here, right?

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

 

[Roguey]

BTW, I'm insulted by the misusing of the word grognard on here. Have games d so much that anyone that wants an iota of challenge and depth in their combat is labeled a grognard?

Josh and I enjoy good challenge and depth. Grognard stuff isn't.

What a moronic way of thinking, popularity doesn't equal quality, that's fallacious.

It does equal audience satisfaction. Skyrim satisfied more people than Oblivion, Fallout 3, and New Vegas. I still consider New Vegas to be the best out of all of them, but I'll concede that it doesn't feel as much of an alternate world to live in as Skyrim. This is fine because that's not one of Josh's goals.

I try to make games that are enjoyable but not addictive. I want people to be able to pick them up, put them down when they have something more important to do (which should be almost anything), and eventually stop playing entirely.
...
RPGs are long and can have a lot of content, but they don't encourage you sit and play them incessantly. They don't demand that you play them multiple times. And if you do play them multiple times, there's nothing that says you have to do back to back playthroughs. Replayability is a side-effect of non-linear quest design and supporting role-playing in general, not a goal in itself.

Many MMOs are designed to be addictive and actively encourage players to play incessantly -- or close to it. A lot of social games encourage players to play the game at regular intervals. I don't like that. I don't want to make games that cause people to deprioritize other aspects of their lives.

Bethesda has no qualms about this.

 

[Ninjerk]

Thanks BuzzFeed

 

[Menckenstein]

So easy, a caveman could do it.