Stealth gaming,has it peaked?

[Ash]

Ever played Manhunt? Probably not. To get a "five star rating" you had to stalk behind an enemy for about five seconds to get the most gory execution. this makes it arguably the most difficult form of takedown to pull off while aiming for a perfect run, ever. Additionally, other factors come into play, like not being able to perform a takedown while the enemy is alerted, while in your typical modern popamole you can perform takedowns at any time, from any angle, with no parameters beyond that you are in range of the enemy. In NuDeusEx you don't even need to have a weapon equipped for that matter.

Lastly, those shitty popamole games are meant to be Deus Ex. There is no place for third person takedowns in my Immersive Sim, even if actually pulled off to a satisfactory standard like in older TP stealth games.

 

[sullynathan]

There was never a stealth game where getting spotted always meant a game over as far as I am aware. There was usually just a level or two with this rule which added diversity and was really tense.

what do you think about splinter cell then?

One of few renowned stealth series I never gave much a chance. Don't know why that is, I just didn't take to it. This was a long time ago now, I must have been about 16. It was probably around the time I fell madly in love with Deus Ex so probably wanted more from my game except sneaking, but of course I came to realize games with a narrower focus can achieve their goals more feasibly.
I did try Conviction a couple years back and that just pissed me off because it was absolute shit, but I'm aware Chaos Theory is meant to be the best (and is an actual stealth game, unlike that popamole shit).

Despite playing most of the good stealth games out there I do prefer RPG\Action\shooting games. That's probably partly because there isn't a lot of stealth games compared to RPGs and action games though.

Special mention to the first Manhunt. Now that was an interesting stealth game.

Ubisoft gave the first game for free 3 months ago, but its dated compared to its sequels with forced action moments.. Conviction was the big decline of the series, the one that the fans really hate. SC is "stealth action", meaning that you can play the game almost like an action game but it's shooting mechanics aren't all that good till chaos theory.

It isn't a "Takedown" simulator, like more recent stealth games though, you don't even get a knife to lethally kill enemies until chaos theory but Splinter Cell still ends up being more grounded in reality than other stealth games I've played. If Ubi ever revives the series, I wouldn't mind an even more realistic take on the series with a new protag because Fisher is too old for this shit.

 

[DeepOcean]

Stealth gaming will peak once someone realizes that emphasis on stealth and ability to silently incapacitate patrols without the remaining ones getting suspicious don't synergize.
Same with emphasis on non-violence and unlimited, reliable non-lethal takedowns.

Agree so much with this, on many stealth games, you are just one button away from completely eliminating threat without any consequence.

 

[ortucis]

Shouldn't STEALTH be about not killing people and completing the levels without people ever realizing you were even there?

So if you are killing people or even knocking them out, you failed at making a stealth game.

 

[sullynathan]

Shouldn't STEALTH be about not killing people and completing the levels without people ever realizing you were even there?

So if you are killing people or even knocking them out, you failed at making a stealth game.

yes, but it doesn't stop me from taking out guards while I'm at it.

 

[pippin]

Such as?

I don't know if there has ever been a game which registered footprints, like Commandos. Imagine a game where killing a guy and draggin his body would leave a bloodtrail which will later be followed by another guard. Stuff like that. In my opinion, most stealth games focus too much on not being heard or seen, and lack the environment element necessary for a true infiltrator mode.

Shouldn't STEALTH be about not killing people and completing the levels without people ever realizing you were even there?

So if you are killing people or even knocking them out, you failed at making a stealth game.

This is true. Awareness is the most important element in a stealth game, making ghosting the only true way to play them. Sadly even in games like Deus Ex that means you end up using one and just one way of playing the game (prod/crossbow + hacking).

 

[Ash]

Such as?

I don't know if there has ever been a game which registered footprints, like Commandos. Imagine a game where killing a guy and draggin his body would leave a bloodtrail which will later be followed by another guard. Stuff like that. In my opinion, most stealth games focus too much on not being heard or seen, and lack the environment element necessary for a true infiltrator mode

Got anything else? I'm just fishing for ideas.

 

[sullynathan]

Such as?

I don't know if there has ever been a game which registered footprints, like Commandos. Imagine a game where killing a guy and draggin his body would leave a bloodtrail which will later be followed by another guard. Stuff like that. In my opinion, most stealth games focus too much on not being heard or seen, and lack the environment element necessary for a true infiltrator mode.

Shouldn't STEALTH be about not killing people and completing the levels without people ever realizing you were even there?

So if you are killing people or even knocking them out, you failed at making a stealth game.

This is true. Awareness is the most important element in a stealth game, making ghosting the only true way to play them. Sadly even in games like Deus Ex that means you end up using one and just one way of playing the game (prod/crossbow + hacking).

on the topic of footprints, you wouldn't leave footprints on every surface type, just on some outdoor levels. In some games, like SC, you don't drag bodies, you carry them.

 

[†††]

There was never a stealth game where getting spotted always meant a game over as far as I am aware. There was usually just a level or two with this rule which added diversity and was really tense.

MGS2 & 3, as well as the MGS1 remake for the cube (dunno about 4 or V, haven't played them) had the option of getting a game over if you were spotted. It was more lenient in MGS3 where you had 1-2 seconds to react and knock out the enemy, while it was an instant Game Over in MGS2/Twin Snakes. Given that these games are small in scope (they feature basically like 3 different areas where you backtrack a lot), this option makes them seem much larger than they are, since you take a lot of time to resolve every room/level, waiting patiently for your opportunity. Makes them much more interesting (and frustrating).

Oh, also they registered footprints, now that the issue it's mentioned, albeit only in few instances (when you step on wet floors, or snow in MGS1)

By the way, I just wanted to say that the original Splinter Cell is the most linear game I've ever played. Haven't ever tried another SC again since then.

 

[sullynathan]

The original Splinter Cell hasn't aged as well as it's sequels

 

[mastroego]

Shouldn't STEALTH be about not killing people and completing the levels without people ever realizing you were even there?

So if you are killing people or even knocking them out, you failed at making a stealth game.

That's why Alien: Isolation makes more sense than most in this regard.
For the most part you evade a single alien, or one-purpose automatons.

 

[DraQ]

Neither of which is serviceable in stealth mode.

Not sure I follow, both help tremendously when trying to sneak around as you know the positions of the enemies.

I meant neither of those games.

 

[Carrion]

I don't know if there has ever been a game which registered footprints, like Commandos. Imagine a game where killing a guy and draggin his body would leave a bloodtrail which will later be followed by another guard. Stuff like that.

In No One Lives Forever 2 the guards may get suspicious if they see your footprints in the snow, and they might start to follow them just to see where they lead to. They'll also notice opened doors and containers, as well as turned-off lights. The game is first and foremost a shooter, of course, but it does have some of the better stealth AI out there.

 

[ortucis]

Shouldn't STEALTH be about not killing people and completing the levels without people ever realizing you were even there?

So if you are killing people or even knocking them out, you failed at making a stealth game.

That's why Alien: Isolation makes more sense than most in this regard.
For the most part you evade a single alien, or one-purpose automatons.

I hate Alien Isolation. Also, everytime that stupid Alien would see me I would run and hide in a locker. I also like how it magically forgets about you the moment you are done clearing the section with triggers designed to trigger the alien in the first place.

That's like playing Splinter Cell and suddenly the game decides to throw in a bunch of black-ops guys which come crashing in through windows. CHALLENGE INCREASED OH MEH GERD!

 

[Declinator]

The original Splinter Cell hasn't aged as well as it's sequels

It has some nice levels but it is definitely a far clumsier game than Chaos Theory. The game is very finicky about knocking out guards for example. Still, worth a play-through in my opinion.

Stealth gaming will peak once someone realizes that emphasis on stealth and ability to silently incapacitate patrols without the remaining ones getting suspicious don't synergize.
Same with emphasis on non-violence and unlimited, reliable non-lethal takedowns.

Eh, not all stealth games need to made from the same mold nor do they all need to go for simulation. Commandos, for example, would not really work properly if the guards started getting suspicious about missing guards or at least it would necessarily make the levels far less populated and thus lose much of their appeal.

If the goal is to enforce ghosting, that can be achieved far more easily by other methods (such as simply disallowing knock outs/killing).

I don't really understand this dislike for clearing out the guards and the level being safe afterwards. It can be very satisfying.

Shouldn't STEALTH be about not killing people and completing the levels without people ever realizing you were even there?

So if you are killing people or even knocking them out, you failed at making a stealth game.

I'd say that stealth games are defined more by not being seen by the enemy rather than the enemy never noticing you went by.

 

[vean]

Styx: Master of Shadows was a better stealth game than Thief or SC

Agree x 17

 

[Beowulf]

[...]I don't really understand this dislike for clearing out the guards and the level being safe afterwards. It can be very satisfying.

Sneaking past the guards, planting the evidence/stealing the documents and then leaving without a trace can be, as well.
I don't claim that it's the way it's meant to be. I enjoy occasional murder and mayhem every once in a while, as any other.

Apples and oranges, man.
I'm more grizzled by the fact that "stealth" for the devlopers means mostly awesome button instantaneous takedowns nowadays.

 

[sullynathan]

 

[ortucis]

In these "stealth" games I usually end up killing or knocking out everybody in the level. Then I go around casually looting stuff. I did the same with Thief and DeusEx.

It's just hilarious if you think about it. One guy ends up wiping the whole place of guards and no one becomes suspicious enough to raise alarm. They accidentally see you and chase you before forgetting about you completely once you hide for few seconds. This is why, all stealth games aren't really "true" stealth. Doesn't make them less fun (except for Isolation).

 

[DraQ]

Eh, not all stealth games need to made from the same mold nor do they all need to go for simulation.

Currently they are and this same mold consists of letting player dismantle all the patrols one guard at a time while no one gives a fuck.

Commandos, for example, would not really work properly if the guards started getting suspicious about missing guards or at least it would necessarily make the levels far less populated and thus lose much of their appeal.

Commandos was essentially an RT, partybased puzzle game, rather than proper stealth. This kind of mechanics could be made to work in something like Commandos but only in TB - then you would suffer no overhead due to coordinating actions of multiple squad members.
Besides it's not like Commandos didn't have it's problems - I distinctly remember some situations where you could recover from a bad fuck-up in the middle of a mission with not even a slap on the wrist - better enemy awareness would help against that.

If the goal is to enforce ghosting, that can be achieved far more easily by other methods (such as simply disallowing knock outs/killing).

Other methods are shit as they consist of artificial limitations of the mechanics. Invisible walls don't suddenly become good when applied to system rather than level design.
Besides, removing options impoverishes gameplay - killing or incapacitating patrols is a valid option, it just shouldn't automatically be the preferred one in a supposed stealth game. The most sensible disincentive is having the game react in a logical way not disallowing the act itself.
It's like adding a crime system and NPCs going hostile in a cRPG when attacke VS physically disallowing harming anyone who isn't a designated enemy.

Not to mention, cutting out pieces of gameplay doesn't help against other exploits - like simply running past guards. Consequences for detection would.

I don't really understand this dislike for clearing out the guards and the level being safe afterwards. It can be very satisfying.

This dislike stems from it detracting from stealth element. If there are no disincentives for removing patrols, stealth is degraded from primary mechanics to a secondary one that helps land good attacks, and even in this role it might become unenforceable, because if there is no downside to take a guard out, the method becomes secondary - dead (and apparently KO'd as well) men tell no tales, so the difference between a level cleared out stealthily and one cleared out in the ordinary manner becomes academic.

And no, even Thief could use some improvement:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyeOt4m2IFo

 

[sullynathan]

Currently they are and this same mold consists of letting player dismantle all the patrols one guard at a time while no one gives a fuck.

Others have mentioned examples of MGSV & Splinter Cell blacklist with guards that patrol other guards areas and periodically check up on them. These are modern examples.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

I don't know if there has ever been a game which registered footprints, like Commandos. Imagine a game where killing a guy and draggin his body would leave a bloodtrail which will later be followed by another guard. Stuff like that.

In No One Lives Forever 2 the guards may get suspicious if they see your footprints in the snow, and they might start to follow them just to see where they lead to. They'll also notice opened doors and containers, as well as turned-off lights. The game is first and foremost a shooter, of course, but it does have some of the better stealth AI out there.

Men that footprint shit exists since '98 (Metal Gear Solid 1 and 3, no one?). And Hitman: Blood Money has the blood trail shit.

In MGS Twin Snakes, some guards that patrol key locations get a call from control center to check up on them. More games could use that, so if the player kills/knocks out that guard control center will send other guards to check up on that guy, wich will temporarly result in a lower security on one side of the map but after that the facility security will be increased, making the guards more alerted (more sensitive to noises, sights, more complex patrols) and the targeted areas/persons/objective for the player will be more heavily guarded or even locked down for a good chunk of time.

In "level to level" shealth games like thief, splinter cell, dishnored. If the player did an action that alerted the base (destroying a camera, killing/knocked a NPC, hacked/stealed something important that was noticed, destroyed something wich was not suposed to be destroyed), IMO a very good way punish that would be to even after the enemies stoped "chasing you" they would be on constant alerted state like I stated above until the player finished the level.

In sandbox games while making that location stay on a alerted phase for a long period of time is good, it couldn't be forever (since it's a sandbox). In those cases a sort of revenge system as there is in MGS V or like DraQ said in the first page of the thread, would be the best solution.

 

[KlauZ]

they would be on constant alerted state

CT does that, guards` "normal" state gets more difficult with each new alert.

 

[sullynathan]

And guards put on new gear with each increasing alert like the use of flak jacket and so on but this gets trivial because you can just quick load over and over till you get things right

 

[DragoFireheart]

Stealth with third-person perspective never made sense to me. It'd be like making a typical Super Mario game in first-person perspective.