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KickStarter Darkest Dungeon AKA the Celerity Attention Whore Thread
- Thread starter Infinitron
- Start date
Lujo
Augur
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2014
- Messages
- 242
It does get quite repetitive, but i went whole hog and did the whole thing. Good lord what a grind.
Fun story: after I've done the whole game I had the following achievements unscored: "Have a character die from a trap", "Have a character die from an obstacle", "Lose a guy to a Worm", "Kill a boss with only one character alive", "Kill a boss with all your characters insane".
I decided to actually get those since I scored most of the other ones. Took me 12 hours! Of actively trying to score them! Tough game my ass.
However, in the last one took extra shennanigans because every time I'd let a boss stress my dudes out one would invariably go virtuous instead of insane, so I had to farm up a bunch of loonies in several tries, then sent them into a boss run at 100 stress. That was the most fun experience of the whole playthrough! Since all the nutters had a different insanity, (well 2 had the same), they all had a personality and there was a weird disfunctional team dynamic going on. I can't believe they screwed things up this hard, they made characters developing a personality a punishment. Everyone tries to avoid the punishment, so nobodies heroes develop a personality, so it's always mindlessly simplistic combat over and over again.
If they just had a personality all the time the game would've been a barrel of fun.
Fun story: after I've done the whole game I had the following achievements unscored: "Have a character die from a trap", "Have a character die from an obstacle", "Lose a guy to a Worm", "Kill a boss with only one character alive", "Kill a boss with all your characters insane".
I decided to actually get those since I scored most of the other ones. Took me 12 hours! Of actively trying to score them! Tough game my ass.
However, in the last one took extra shennanigans because every time I'd let a boss stress my dudes out one would invariably go virtuous instead of insane, so I had to farm up a bunch of loonies in several tries, then sent them into a boss run at 100 stress. That was the most fun experience of the whole playthrough! Since all the nutters had a different insanity, (well 2 had the same), they all had a personality and there was a weird disfunctional team dynamic going on. I can't believe they screwed things up this hard, they made characters developing a personality a punishment. Everyone tries to avoid the punishment, so nobodies heroes develop a personality, so it's always mindlessly simplistic combat over and over again.
If they just had a personality all the time the game would've been a barrel of fun.
Celerity
Takes 1337 hours to realise it's shit.
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2015
- Messages
- 1,096
Know what the best part of all this is Lujo ? You had this incredibly long, boring, and tedious grind game. You then greatly amplified the grind as well as the RNG by spamming stun instead of damage. Seriously, you tortured yourself with vanilla for 150 hours. I'd never do that, the retard's meme only works because they think I spent that amount of time on Derpest Dungeon instead of the real game produced by me.
This "game" doesn't know what the fuck it wants because it has no vision. On one hand you have, as you say nothing but punishment for seeing your characters as something other than generic, interchangable units (though this is more apparent with all the garbage that makes them interact with the Giant Alien Spiders events). On the other you have all these narratives making it sound as if they are individual characters and not generic, interchangable units. I mean someone who is actually competent at balancing and vision (so not Rekt Hook) could have made it so each class actually is an individual character with an actual backstory and personality, and then if they die they are fucking dead and yes that means a death count of (number of classes in game - 3) means Game Over as you can no longer assemble a party for an expedition. With common sense and math skills you could make those various classes distinct and useful both mechanics wise and flavor wise, at which point you have the framework of an actual game. Now start working on an actual map generator and an event system at least on par with FTL and you have a half decent beta Roguelite. Get someone good at high level, yet creative and distinct difficulty *cough*Mother Fucking Celerity Son*cough* and suddenly all the hype and bullshit would have some basis in reality as an actual legitimate game.
Instead you get a mobile walking simulator.
This "game" doesn't know what the fuck it wants because it has no vision. On one hand you have, as you say nothing but punishment for seeing your characters as something other than generic, interchangable units (though this is more apparent with all the garbage that makes them interact with the Giant Alien Spiders events). On the other you have all these narratives making it sound as if they are individual characters and not generic, interchangable units. I mean someone who is actually competent at balancing and vision (so not Rekt Hook) could have made it so each class actually is an individual character with an actual backstory and personality, and then if they die they are fucking dead and yes that means a death count of (number of classes in game - 3) means Game Over as you can no longer assemble a party for an expedition. With common sense and math skills you could make those various classes distinct and useful both mechanics wise and flavor wise, at which point you have the framework of an actual game. Now start working on an actual map generator and an event system at least on par with FTL and you have a half decent beta Roguelite. Get someone good at high level, yet creative and distinct difficulty *cough*Mother Fucking Celerity Son*cough* and suddenly all the hype and bullshit would have some basis in reality as an actual legitimate game.
Instead you get a mobile walking simulator.
Andhaira
Arcane
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2007
- Messages
- 1,868,990
Not exactly. Tactics do work; however you have to keep in mind many of the support abilities would be incredibly powerful if you could use them at will; for instance, abilities that cure stress. You could break the game if you could just keep one enemy alive & stunned or whatever and spam cure stress over all your party until no one has any stress left. That's why dragging a battle on causes monsters to get backup and increases stress and thus also increases chance of enemy crits. So tactics do work if you use them quickly; and I don't get your issue with doing damage; that's eventually how you get rid of the enemies in any case. You have to kill your enemies eventually.
I am not saying this is the perfect way of doing things, but this is how the game was designed. Stress and character management was a core part of the game, always. Players are supposed to have a large roster of characters, because they either die or have to be in recovery keeping them out of the action for a while.
Anyhow the game is ofcourse great. Would love a TB isometric game by these folks; and also a tabletop pnp version of the rules. No Torchbearer does not cut it.
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2013
- Messages
- 3,348
Nobody gives a fuck Celerity you myopic lultard.
Andhaira
Arcane
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2007
- Messages
- 1,868,990
Celerity
Takes 1337 hours to realise it's shit.
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2015
- Messages
- 1,096
Andhaira Spoken like someone without a clue. You still can do the infinite stunlock heal thing, you just leave 2 worthless enemies alive instead of 1. You also don't need that because if you damage spam properly, instead of using useless classes and skills you strike first, deal 23-44 x 4, and annihilate the screen before it moves. Now compare that withering damage spam with the weak, unreliable abilities that would be called tactical if the math on them actually worked like... everything except direct damage.
HAI GUYS SIX DAMAGE LOLS!
The best part? While those results are atypical (the 23-44 is what you get with no conditional modifiers) that was also before the extreme powercreep, and also isn't the gold standard of vanilla damage spam.
Literally every problem with the game comes from treating it like a proper game and not a walking simulator with light damage spam elements.
HAI GUYS SIX DAMAGE LOLS!
The best part? While those results are atypical (the 23-44 is what you get with no conditional modifiers) that was also before the extreme powercreep, and also isn't the gold standard of vanilla damage spam.
Literally every problem with the game comes from treating it like a proper game and not a walking simulator with light damage spam elements.
Celerity
Takes 1337 hours to realise it's shit.
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2015
- Messages
- 1,096
Anything that actually has reasonably strong mechanics and non trivial difficulty.
Examples from my Steam library:
Blackguards 1.
Blackguards 2.
Darklands.
Elminage Gothic.
Legends of Eisenwald.
Lords of Xulima.
Paper Sorcerer.
SanctuaryRPG: Black Edition.
Serpent in the Staglands.
Underrail.
I'm also a big fan of anything Wizardry like, and Roguelike (as in the real deal, not these modern posers).
Now this walking simulator is entirely lacking in all those elements, despite them being something that a bored modder could easily add at one point, instead it's a game you have a basic script farm for you while you focus on games that don't suck.
Here's the patented Celerity quality test of a good game:
Run it for one hour.
Think of the first "gamebreaker" you've found using your limited knowledge that's the most basic, degenerate, bullshit thing imaginable.
A good game will punish your dumbfuckery and disrespect, a shit one will not only let it work but let it work everywhere.
Examples from my Steam library:
Blackguards 1.
Blackguards 2.
Darklands.
Elminage Gothic.
Legends of Eisenwald.
Lords of Xulima.
Paper Sorcerer.
SanctuaryRPG: Black Edition.
Serpent in the Staglands.
Underrail.
I'm also a big fan of anything Wizardry like, and Roguelike (as in the real deal, not these modern posers).
Now this walking simulator is entirely lacking in all those elements, despite them being something that a bored modder could easily add at one point, instead it's a game you have a basic script farm for you while you focus on games that don't suck.
Here's the patented Celerity quality test of a good game:
Run it for one hour.
Think of the first "gamebreaker" you've found using your limited knowledge that's the most basic, degenerate, bullshit thing imaginable.
A good game will punish your dumbfuckery and disrespect, a shit one will not only let it work but let it work everywhere.
:monocle pop:
Lujo
Augur
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2014
- Messages
- 242
Ok, wait, when was that picture taken?
Because those rings are not the same rarity as they are currently, and they currently give +15% damage and +10 acc. That guy in the picture somehow has 39% crit while using an ability which gives -7% crit at the highest level, and 27-38 damage while using a skill which has a static -60% damage at all levels. Those stats are unreal, if they were ever like that they're not like that anymore. Stun spam isn't even slow, and it wrecked the final dungeon completely. If damage spam was what the picture shows once, stun spam is that now (and probably always was, it's just that it was possible to cheeze damage + aoe. Still is very rarely when you walk into enough appropriate curios).
If you're going to go on criticizing the game you might want to update your material on that point, they actually fixed that.
You're (somewhat) right about the other things. More right than wrong. No vision is right, they went madly for making you economically rather than emotionally invested in your dudes.
Because those rings are not the same rarity as they are currently, and they currently give +15% damage and +10 acc. That guy in the picture somehow has 39% crit while using an ability which gives -7% crit at the highest level, and 27-38 damage while using a skill which has a static -60% damage at all levels. Those stats are unreal, if they were ever like that they're not like that anymore. Stun spam isn't even slow, and it wrecked the final dungeon completely. If damage spam was what the picture shows once, stun spam is that now (and probably always was, it's just that it was possible to cheeze damage + aoe. Still is very rarely when you walk into enough appropriate curios).
If you're going to go on criticizing the game you might want to update your material on that point, they actually fixed that.
You're (somewhat) right about the other things. More right than wrong. No vision is right, they went madly for making you economically rather than emotionally invested in your dudes.
Zetor
Arcane
Considering that this game is basically Innsmouth Tycoon 2016, it's weird they haven't added any sort of failure state on the 'strategic layer' instead of the punishment just being more grind*. That, and a massive reduction on the necessary grind (or just adding different content for veteran/champion) would probably help a lot. Didn't the devs say they were working on some content to be released in March?
* I think there's a time limit on NG+, but I'm not going to grind to the end of NG just to replay with a time limit...
* I think there's a time limit on NG+, but I'm not going to grind to the end of NG just to replay with a time limit...
Lujo
Augur
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2014
- Messages
- 242
There's a time limit, yeah, I'm doing it now for the last few achevements (finish game on NG+, finish game under 99 weeks and have the two jokers from the start survive). But the problem is the same with the final dungeon - it's not bad at all it's just not worth grinding through the base game at all.
They said they were working on content for match, but AFAIK it's just a new gimmick class and something called "town events" whatever those are. I suppose there might be a grind rebalancing allong with that, but I don't see it working if they don't add about twice as much content for regular runs as there is now and completely overhaul the town buildings.
They said they were working on content for match, but AFAIK it's just a new gimmick class and something called "town events" whatever those are. I suppose there might be a grind rebalancing allong with that, but I don't see it working if they don't add about twice as much content for regular runs as there is now and completely overhaul the town buildings.
Celerity
Takes 1337 hours to realise it's shit.
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2015
- Messages
- 1,096
Lujo Since that picture was taken, the following changes were made:
All heroes got a base damage buff.
More damage bonuses became available.
Sun Rings got buffed. Multiple times.
You can't use 2 of the same trinket without an exploit, but that's a moot point as Moon Ring + Quick Draw is the gold standard anyways.
Critical hits do +50% damage instead of +100%.
AoE math is multiplicative instead of additive.
Accounting for all of the following, damage spam as shown in that screenshot would deal 40 critical and 13-27 normal. Which still makes crits instant kills on anything you'd spam AoE on, and AoE spam a 2 hit kill otherwise.
Now as stated before the screenshot does not illustrate typical results, as you do not typically have 6 Moonshine barrel buffs + other buffs in effects. Standard steady state damage spam is 10-19 AoE, or 23-44 single target. It also uses Hellion instead of Highwayman as Highwayman has always been just like a Hellion but worse for no reason. PS: It's -5% crit, though you use white hits for your damage spam and the crits are just there for free stress heal (which you actually get more of, because it checks each of the three targets individually).
Stun spam is no comparison. It drags out the fight, makes RNG fuck you, and makes you grind more for no reason. Damage spam kills screens before they move, which prevents all damage anyways. Stun spam has only ever been relevant as part of exploit heals, which still work with minor workarounds despite their 4-5 "more than a fixes", and their one countermeasure that even kind of works (the stun buff) is bugged and triggers several times off one stun, and is also worthlessly small (which is why I realized it did nothing after a few days, then rapidly raised it until it was 5x the original value... of course, I also made stuns useful by making enemy actions worth preventing...).
Town Events have been vaguely described. They're basically Giant Alien Spider curios that you can't opt out on and appear randomly, creating more grind. Naturally they will never elaborate even when asked...
All heroes got a base damage buff.
More damage bonuses became available.
Sun Rings got buffed. Multiple times.
You can't use 2 of the same trinket without an exploit, but that's a moot point as Moon Ring + Quick Draw is the gold standard anyways.
Critical hits do +50% damage instead of +100%.
AoE math is multiplicative instead of additive.
Accounting for all of the following, damage spam as shown in that screenshot would deal 40 critical and 13-27 normal. Which still makes crits instant kills on anything you'd spam AoE on, and AoE spam a 2 hit kill otherwise.
Now as stated before the screenshot does not illustrate typical results, as you do not typically have 6 Moonshine barrel buffs + other buffs in effects. Standard steady state damage spam is 10-19 AoE, or 23-44 single target. It also uses Hellion instead of Highwayman as Highwayman has always been just like a Hellion but worse for no reason. PS: It's -5% crit, though you use white hits for your damage spam and the crits are just there for free stress heal (which you actually get more of, because it checks each of the three targets individually).
Stun spam is no comparison. It drags out the fight, makes RNG fuck you, and makes you grind more for no reason. Damage spam kills screens before they move, which prevents all damage anyways. Stun spam has only ever been relevant as part of exploit heals, which still work with minor workarounds despite their 4-5 "more than a fixes", and their one countermeasure that even kind of works (the stun buff) is bugged and triggers several times off one stun, and is also worthlessly small (which is why I realized it did nothing after a few days, then rapidly raised it until it was 5x the original value... of course, I also made stuns useful by making enemy actions worth preventing...).
Town Events have been vaguely described. They're basically Giant Alien Spider curios that you can't opt out on and appear randomly, creating more grind. Naturally they will never elaborate even when asked...
Roid King
Educated
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2016
- Messages
- 52
Am I the only one who actually hates the art style of this game, and will not even consider playing it on that basis? It's not about being shallow and disregarding substance (such as it is) for form, but recognizing that degenerate art speaks about the substance of the creators. Maybe "degenerate" is a bit strong for this particular game, but it's definitely in the "deviant" part of the spectrum, being focused on the artist and "originality" for its own sake.
Andhaira
Arcane
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2007
- Messages
- 1,868,990
The art follows a certain theme. It is mostly lovecraftian, and also eldritch with just a dash of twisted grimm brothers faery tale thrown in.
It's awesome.
Roid King
Educated
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2016
- Messages
- 52
Let's play or it didn't happen.
Stainless Veteran
Arcane
Roid King
Educated
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2016
- Messages
- 52
See that button?
Celerity
Takes 1337 hours to realise it's shit.
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2015
- Messages
- 1,096
So can reviews be edited after they are submitted Crooked Bee ? Inquiring minds are asking.
Mozg
Arcane
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2015
- Messages
- 2,033
Hey Celerity, does this game cheat the RNG on attacks in favor of the player? It feels like missing 80-90% is way too infrequent when you're doing them 3-4 times a turn. Are they doing the Fire Emblem thing where they're really using a curved probability distribution without telling the player?
If you don't know offhand, is the math hidden and unmoddable enough that it wouldn't be common knowledge without someone bothering to test it?
If you don't know offhand, is the math hidden and unmoddable enough that it wouldn't be common knowledge without someone bothering to test it?
Celerity
Takes 1337 hours to realise it's shit.
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2015
- Messages
- 1,096
If you select your action very quickly it has a much higher than statistically normal chance of failing. This is presumably meant as a means of making panicking noobs die and rage, since that makes the game look good. It's also possible this is a result of their "RNG sculpting" they claim prevents repeated instances of the same results (say, 4 crits in a row) but knowing them and their laziness and incompetence they probably broke it and did it backwards, and because they won't elaborate on what exactly they did and it's hardcoded so we can't see what we did we can only gauge by closely observing results. And if you watch anyone just hitting buttons very quickly you'll see an absurdly high number of misses, especially if they have (90 + dodge) accuracy.
Also, Fire Emblem math is curved the other way, 80-90% is actually 95% or something.
Anyways it's not common knowledge, hell even basic shit like what spawns the Collector isn't common knowledge because everyone with a clue left, or got salty like me. It's such that someone with zero preconceptions will do far better than someone asking for help because false information is absolutely everywhere.
Also, Fire Emblem math is curved the other way, 80-90% is actually 95% or something.
Anyways it's not common knowledge, hell even basic shit like what spawns the Collector isn't common knowledge because everyone with a clue left, or got salty like me. It's such that someone with zero preconceptions will do far better than someone asking for help because false information is absolutely everywhere.
Mozg
Arcane
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2015
- Messages
- 2,033
I'm saying I think DD gives the player better-than-displayed odds on 80-90% type hitrolls, at least in the release version, like FE. Like if you have four characters making 85% accuracy attacks, in about half of rounds you should get one miss, and I'm pretty sure that ain't happening. It might be some exception-rule like the game throwing out whiffs if you've missed in the last 5 attacks rather than flat systemic stuff like FE (which just averages two d100 rolls) but the aggregate effect is seemingly player-favoring.
I didn't notice the button mashing thing but it's possible it just didn't come up for me. I mostly just wanted to know if it's *possible* without the formula being clearly visible in an exposed file or something.
Rng-fucking stuff, even in my favor, bugs me because I like games giving me accurate perceptions of what a probability feels like in practice.
I didn't notice the button mashing thing but it's possible it just didn't come up for me. I mostly just wanted to know if it's *possible* without the formula being clearly visible in an exposed file or something.
Rng-fucking stuff, even in my favor, bugs me because I like games giving me accurate perceptions of what a probability feels like in practice.
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