Why so few superhero rpgs?

[V_K]

RPGs are about character building. There's nothing to build with super heroes, they already are what they are.

This, precisely.
Even if the game's plot is the hero's origin story, there's still nothing to develop aside from one or two superpowers, since all the 'human' stats are vastly underpowered in comparison. There's just no space to fit a stat system in a superhero concept. Hoboken's approach of only having pathetic gimmicky powers seems like the only way to make something RPG-ish of the superheroes.

 

[SarcasticUndertones]

Can't be too pointless considering that both DC and Marvel have their own PnP systems.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

RPGs are about character building. There's nothing to build with super heroes, they already are what they are. The only super hero RPG you could make is a story fag one, which i doubt would be a particular popular choice among super hero fans.

Some superheroes like Batman had actually learned their abilities, not acquired them, the same way they used their genius intellect and fortune to built their gadgets. Sound pretty RPGish to me

 

[DraQ]

Repeat after me:
Level 1 Superman.

 

[Pope Amole II]

Repeat after me:
Level 1 Superman.

Have you ever watched Smallville? I've seen only a couple of episodes in my childhood, but I clearly remember him discovering new powers in the process (like using his newfound x-ray vision to glimpse on his girl friend's buttcheek).

Sorry, but "superheroes don't work with level ups" doesn't make much sense - for example, wizards are also supposed to be quite superpowered in what they do (and their IRL myth and fantasy inspirations are quite superpowered) but, as we all know, in many rpgs 1st level wizard is one of the scrawniest thing ever.

The whole "level up" thing is a huge abstraction which serves to make the game interesting to play. It can't be reasoned about and it shouldn't be reasoned about - just the way no one tries to find a reason for the knights in the chess moving in "L" pattern. They just move and that's it. If the game works well, why give too much fucks about it?

Given we're on the Codex, it's a rhetorical question, though.

BTW, no one mentiones here the PC release of X-Men Legends 2. While it was more or less a diablo-clone, it had beat-em up mechanics instead of the clickety diablo crap and was quite fun when played hotseat. All characters had quite a bit of abilities to learn too. Strange that there are no digital release for that thing - probably some kind of rights issues.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Soul Reaver is my favourite superhero RPG.

Level 1 Raziel can glide and throw stuff around.

Level 6 Raziel can use telekinetix, swim, climb, warp through fences, call in a firesword and run circles around dudes to kill them.

 

[Alchemist]

RPGs are about character building. There's nothing to build with super heroes, they already are what they are.

There's just no space to fit a stat system in a superhero concept.

Really? Have you ever looked at tabletop RPGs? Here's a Champions character sheet - plenty of stats to play around with:

Character building, power design and progression based on a point-buy system - (points are the XP rewards during a campaign).
I'm not much into superhero stuff, but an open-ended single-player CRPG based on Champions, true to the PnP ruleset would be pretty interesting. Champions Online doesn't fit the bill, though they have a nice visual character design system.

 

[laclongquan]

A NWN2 character in a normal setting (earth) would be a superhero/villain. I dont see why you cant build your SH from ground up.

It's just the kwantard fanbois want readymade overpowered supers.

 

[V_K]

Really? Have you ever looked at tabletop RPGs? Here's a Champions character sheet - plenty of stats to play around with

Doesn't look very superhero-ish to me - on the one hand he has about three times more powers than your average superman, on the other - all those stat scores probably make him much weaker than your average superman. It's basically a reskinned warrior/mage or something.

 

[you know what time it is]

Because superhero concept is boring, even more boring than elves. It's like playing solo kensai/mage in BG2.

 

[Multi-headed Cow]

I'd play the shit out of a Timon RPG

Huegpenis

Huegpenis

I'd play the shit out of a Timon RPG

Huegpenis




Hmm. I got my eye on you, Roxor.

 

[Sykar]

Because superhero concept is boring, even more boring than elves. It's like playing solo kensai/mage in BG2.

Or Sorcerer.

 

[Luzur]

Superman 64

 

[Zombra]

Really? Have you ever looked at tabletop RPGs? Here's a Champions character sheet - plenty of stats to play around with

Doesn't look very superhero-ish to me - on the one hand he has about three times more powers than your average superman, on the other - all those stat scores probably make him much weaker than your average superman. It's basically a reskinned warrior/mage or something.

Huh? The guy pictured has three powers, not counting super stats such as 33 STR. And the first 8 stats are built more or less on the old D&D standard. Remember how the god Thor had a 25+ Strength?

There is plenty of fun to be had in superhero RPGs, and yes, you can have character advancement, both in P&P and in video games. I played the hell out of City of Heroes and Champions Online. I would still be playing CO today if I'd had the foresight to buy a lifetime sub.

I think that superhero RPGs are rare because designing and balancing the character systems is a nightmare, simply because anything goes. Champions (P&P) got it right by making a generic point system for everything (do some kind of damage? That costs 5 points per d6, be it cold blast, knife throwing, telekenetic strike, whatever), but that's hard to translate onto a computer screen, though Freedom Force did a pretty good job of emulating it.

Really though, all this is academic when I think about it. At bottom, it's most likely about money. Why create an RPG where you design your own superhero when you could make another shitty Spider-Man game instead and sell 100x as many copies? What publisher would think that's a good idea?

 

[Tigranes]

Wish they'd kickstarted that Hoboken sequel they promised in the ending.

Actually, a superhero RPG could be interesting on this front - if we take the typical 'hidden identity' setup, then you might play a substantial portion of the game in your mundane persona. That's the guise in which you are talking to people, buying equipment, finding clues. Maybe it is the case that you are sometimes ambushed or called into situations without the chance to change underpants, and hence you have to deal with a combination of a gimped character and some auxiliary skills you've invested in. Maybe it is the case that you, the superhero, begin the game by being framed as a villain or threat, so that you've got to be very careful, perhaps investing in stealth or gadgets, to give yourself the opportunity to use stealth powers. Instead of you becoming a force of nature before your mostly mundane waves of enemies, it may be interesting when the villains don't have any problem throwing superhero powers in your face but you can't always fire back.

 

[Telengard]

Can't be too pointless considering that both DC and Marvel have their own PnP systems.

Both of which suck. And would suck even harder as crgs.

To illustrate why they would suck so hard, take the endless Marvel Diablos clones. Lots of powers in there. But they have to dumb most of those powers down to make them fit the gameworld and action. Fly becomes hover. Ice sheet becomes contextual. Superstrong becomes contextual and +damage.

For fly to be meaningful, there has to be an Up to fly to. There is no Up in RPGs. For superspeed to be meaningful, battlefields have to be ginormous so you can do more than start/stop. For superstrong to be meaningful, the environment has to be destructible. For wall stickiness to be meaningful, you have to be able to climb to weird and unusual places. Etc.

Superpowers tend to work best remaining in the imagination, such as pnp or comic books give you, or as mmorpgs and 3rd person open world action games, where the player is free to use super powers as they will. Which is why there are an overabundance of 3rd person open world superhero action games, and almost no fixed combat versions, like RPGs.

 

[SarcasticUndertones]

Can't be too pointless considering that both DC and Marvel have their own PnP systems.

Both of which suck. And would suck even harder as crgs.

To illustrate why they would suck so hard, take the endless Marvel Diablos clones. Lots of powers in there. But they have to dumb most of those powers down to make them fit the gameworld and action. Fly becomes hover. Ice sheet becomes contextual. Superstrong becomes contextual and +damage.

For fly to be meaningful, there has to be an Up to fly to. There is no Up in RPGs. For superspeed to be meaningful, battlefields have to be ginormous so you can do more than start/stop. For superstrong to be meaningful, the environment has to be destructible. For wall stickiness to be meaningful, you have to be able to climb to weird and unusual places. Etc.

Superpowers tend to work best remaining in the imagination, such as pnp or comic books give you, or as mmorpgs and 3rd person open world action games, where the player is free to use super powers as they will. Which is why there are an overabundance of 3rd person open world superhero action games, and almost no fixed combat versions, like RPGs.

Doesn't really matter if they suck or not one is still certainly capable of having a superhero RPG, and that is highly subjective anywway I've played both and didn't think they sucked, I've had better and worse experiences.

 

[Mustawd]

Can't be too pointless considering that both DC and Marvel have their own PnP systems.

Both of which suck. And would suck even harder as crgs.

To illustrate why they would suck so hard, take the endless Marvel Diablos clones. Lots of powers in there. But they have to dumb most of those powers down to make them fit the gameworld and action. Fly becomes hover. Ice sheet becomes contextual. Superstrong becomes contextual and +damage.

For fly to be meaningful, there has to be an Up to fly to. There is no Up in RPGs. For superspeed to be meaningful, battlefields have to be ginormous so you can do more than start/stop. For superstrong to be meaningful, the environment has to be destructible. For wall stickiness to be meaningful, you have to be able to climb to weird and unusual places. Etc.

Superpowers tend to work best remaining in the imagination, such as pnp or comic books give you, or as mmorpgs and 3rd person open world action games, where the player is free to use super powers as they will. Which is why there are an overabundance of 3rd person open world superhero action games, and almost no fixed combat versions, like RPGs.

Not getting your points. Lots of abilities in ANY rpg seem like to superpowers. The fact that it takes progression to get to that point doesn't ruin the experience. Why would the process of acquiring superpowers in a Superhero RPG ruin that experience?

Yes, some abilities could effectively break some game mechanics and the Dev would need to take that into account. But who says any of the playable superheroes have to fly? Are you seriously saying a "proper incline" RPG of say, Wolverine, wouldn't be interesting?

 

[kris]

I'd rather would like to see an X-Com-esque game with the X-Men, the Watchmen or another superhero league. One would think this combo is a no-brainer. Is there anything on the market like this?

I envisioned something like that, like a "X-men academy" were you make a new student at the Xavier school and instead of class you choose from a few powersets. Its one of the four games i really would like to make.

 

[almondblight]

ITT lots of people who never played Freedom Force and think the stuff it does is impossible.

 

[J_C]

Can't be too pointless considering that both DC and Marvel have their own PnP systems.

Both of which suck. And would suck even harder as crgs.

To illustrate why they would suck so hard, take the endless Marvel Diablos clones. Lots of powers in there. But they have to dumb most of those powers down to make them fit the gameworld and action. Fly becomes hover. Ice sheet becomes contextual. Superstrong becomes contextual and +damage.

For fly to be meaningful, there has to be an Up to fly to. There is no Up in RPGs. For superspeed to be meaningful, battlefields have to be ginormous so you can do more than start/stop. For superstrong to be meaningful, the environment has to be destructible. For wall stickiness to be meaningful, you have to be able to climb to weird and unusual places. Etc.

Superpowers tend to work best remaining in the imagination, such as pnp or comic books give you, or as mmorpgs and 3rd person open world action games, where the player is free to use super powers as they will. Which is why there are an overabundance of 3rd person open world superhero action games, and almost no fixed combat versions, like RPGs.

What the fuck? This must be the stupidest counter argument in this thread against superhero RPGs. There is nothing, NOTHING about superheroes which couldn't be translated into a cRPGs. When you are playing a mage in any fantasy RPG, you are playing a fucking superhero already. And there is no problem with that.

What is the problem with flying? Can't you make 3 dimensional maps in 2015? Superspeed doesn't need to be so fast that you just start/stop. Just be very fast, like in the Jedi Knight games, when you use Force Run, or in D&D, using haste (you can amp haste up much more, to give more superspeed feel to it). Destructible enviroment is not a problem. Wall climbing detto. There is no real reason why a superhero RPG couldn't exist.

A superhero could have progression, just like any RPG character, because a hero shouldn't have all his powers from the beginning.

I don't know why is this an argument at all. It is so obvious.

 

[Telengard]

Doesn't really matter if they suck or not one is still certainly capable of having a superhero RPG, and that is highly subjective anywway I've played both and didn't think they sucked, I've had better and worse experiences.

Okay, that's the first sentence. Now deal with translating the action to a computer game, instead of your imagination.

Not getting your points. Lots of abilities in ANY rpg seem like to superpowers. The fact that it takes progression to get to that point doesn't ruin the experience. Why would the process of acquiring superpowers in a Superhero RPG ruin that experience?

Yes, some abilities could effectively break some game mechanics and the Dev would need to take that into account. But who says any of the playable superheroes have to fly? Are you seriously saying a "proper incline" RPG of say, Wolverine, wouldn't be interesting?

What makes superhero different is the things that make them supra-human. Translate Wolverine to crpgs, and he's just any old suped-up druidic warrior. in crpg context, the only thing he's got going for him is the name and setting. If you keep him in crpg land and take those away, then he's got nothing to mark him as distinct.

All of the supra-powers that make people go - oh cool, I'm playing a superhero - those things are all the fancy stuff, like web swing and the ability to punch down buildings. Things which don't translate well to the closed and constrained space that is crpg land. Because the very nature of the superhero, they who are free from human constraints, do not function anymore when you take away that freedom and constrain them to normal battles.

 

[Alchemist]

I think that superhero RPGs are rare because designing and balancing the character systems is a nightmare, simply because anything goes. Champions (P&P) got it right by making a generic point system for everything (do some kind of damage? That costs 5 points per d6, be it cold blast, knife throwing, telekenetic strike, whatever), but that's hard to translate onto a computer screen, though Freedom Force did a pretty good job of emulating it.

Really though, all this is academic when I think about it. At bottom, it's most likely about money. Why create an RPG where you design your own superhero when you could make another shitty Spider-Man game instead and sell 100x as many copies? What publisher would think that's a good idea?

Yeah balance and implementation really would be a challenge especially with the Champions system since it's so wide-open. I still would love to see someone try, even it was a bit messy. Balance is somewhat overrated these days anyway.

You are right though that big publishers will always focus on whatever franchise is most popular and that means more Marvel stuff, Batman, etc. It would take a small studio and a kickstarter to do something like a proper single-player Champions CRPG.

Can't be too pointless considering that both DC and Marvel have their own PnP systems.

For fly to be meaningful, there has to be an Up to fly to. There is no Up in RPGs. For superspeed to be meaningful, battlefields have to be ginormous so you can do more than start/stop. For superstrong to be meaningful, the environment has to be destructible. For wall stickiness to be meaningful, you have to be able to climb to weird and unusual places. Etc.

All of that is possible in modern 3D engines and exists in games we already have. As long as the game is designed from the ground up with superpowers in mind I see no problem. Sufficiently large environments, destructible, lots of verticality for flying, etc.

 

[SarcasticUndertones]

Doesn't really matter if they suck or not one is still certainly capable of having a superhero RPG, and that is highly subjective anywway I've played both and didn't think they sucked, I've had better and worse experiences.

Okay, that's the first sentence. Now deal with translating the action to a computer game, instead of your imagination.

No, I don't feel the need to reply further to a pointless post.

They are possible and I've had fun with them.. end of story.

 

[Mustawd]

What makes superhero different is the things that make them supra-human. Translate Wolverine to crpgs, and he's just any old suped-up druidic warrior. in crpg context, the only thing he's got going for him is the name and setting. If you keep him in crpg land and take those away, then he's got nothing to mark him as distinct.

Still not seeing what you're saying here. Wolverine in the context of all the X Men did not have the best abilities. It was his backstory (aka Weapon X, Attitude, Sabertooth rivalry), etc. which gave him his appeal We're talking flavor here. At this point in CRPG history 90% of the abilities that are in games would completely overwhelm most, if not all, of what Superman, Batman, and all the X Men could probably do combined.

All of the supra-powers that make people go - oh cool, I'm playing a superhero - those things are all the fancy stuff, like web swing and the ability to punch down buildings. Things which don't translate well to the closed and constrained space that is crpg land. Because the very nature of the superhero, they who are free from human constraints, do not function anymore when you take away that freedom and constrain them to normal battles.

There would be issues with balance sure, (but balance sucks balls anyway), but with today's tech why would that even be an issue? Games like X Com already had destructible terrain, telekinesis, and the ability to basically fly (with powersuits).

The biggest obstacle I see, like someone already alluded to, would to make the use of licenses for established superheroes.