A discussion re: selfish needs in RPG's

[shihonage]

I realize you're just trolling me but this is actually an excellent idea. I believe something like this has been done before, to a very primitive level, as well. I can't remember which game(s) but there's at least one that did quiz you, the player, about various things. It had nothing necessarily to do with the character you were creating but it led you to believe your answers would have an effect later on in the game

I just realized that what you really want is a game based on the movie "The Game".

Unfortunately it's a lot easier for players to lie to their computer than to a polygraph.

 

[commie]

There should be a questionnaire at the beginning of each game asking you about sexual preference, your perversions, fears, wants, goals, hopes etc. Then the game creates a special location/quest/easter egg that is tailored for you based on your replies.

In this way Crispy would get to see something in his game that no-one else will.

I realize you're just trolling me but this is actually an excellent idea. I believe something like this has been done before, to a very primitive level, as well. I can't remember which game(s) but there's at least one that did quiz you, the player, about various things. It had nothing necessarily to do with the character you were creating but it led you to believe your answers would have an effect later on in the game. This wasn't one of the Ultimas, was it? Am I just thinking of the tarot readings?

Anyway along the lines of dynamic content generation in a modern game, it's a great way to start. Any randomization requires a seed, and what better a seed than one that grows into content later on that's tailored for you, personally, and that no one else will see (given enough variables).

A series of lore-related questions, for example, that the game would take into account and utlilize in its one-time auto-generation of quests, locations or objectives. Taking TES again, and sticking to in-game but non-specific topics, how about:

- Are you loyal to the emperor? What are your feelings about imperial rule?

- Do you consider yourself to be a just person? Or do you prefer to operate outside the law?

- What province do you hail from and what is your primary motivation in risking your life to adventure?

A series of multiple choice answers would then be thrown into the pot and used to customize the gameworld to enough of a (hidden) degree so as to drive you to discover your place in it and what it holds in store. It's unreasonable to expect a non-finite number of "results" for this kind of thing, but presumably once tech advances enough and once enough trial and error has taken place with this kind of thing it could be part of the future of RPG development.

I'm thinking maybe the inclusion of an entire town that would be where you're from. Family members, background information would be filled in. It'd be fascinating. Possibly something along the lines of Luke and his dark cave, where you confront a personal enemy of yours in some remote location. That kind of thing.

Is it worth the effort as a sales point for a game? I think so and I wouldn't be surprised to see concepts like these implemented more and more as computers get more powerful and programming techniques become more innovative and automated.

Thanks, commie!

It wasn't really a troll, just that it seemed like an idea that in this day and age would be paradoxically unfeasible because although the technology to implement such a thing in game is much easier to do that it would have been in the past with limited memory and other limitations, the WILL to add such a layer of depth into a game is not there anymore.

I actually remember some game like this, just as you do..Christ I don't know what the hell it was, maybe some adventure game where you pick something at the start and there's a reference to it later?

Your development of the idea is sound and really it's not like it would require much more effort than something procedurally created like in Daggerfall, only with references and names and quests that are defined by what you answered during character creation. So you could have a town of people you 'know' and they maybe have some quests where you confront an embodiment of the fears you expressed in the questionnaire.

You character could also be formed so that in the game he is more scared of spiders for example or have a fear of water which would make it very difficult to learn swimming or jump in a lake, depending on what you answer. To make it feasible, it would have to be more multiple choice as a compromise for the most part though otherwise people would write 'purple veined multi-headed dicks' as the creatures they fear the most.

 

[Gord]

The problem with procedurally created content (and thus the reason OP won't find what he's looking for in such a game) is that it is ultimately devoid of any backstory/meaning.

If the point would simply be about placing any random building at an barely accessible place then it could be done quite easily.
But what's the point in finding this building? It will be soulless.

You could also make a number of prefabricated "tiles" that are then placed randomly somewhere, but it's not a real step forward from the original premise: while the map may be different between you and the sucker that played the game before you, you will encounter the same tiles, again spoiling the fun.

Instead what I could imagine is massive amount of user created content that is placed somewhat randomly, maybe according to some variables that determine what is placed where, etc.

To reduce furry-porn BDSM-lairs you would have to implement some quality control (e.g. through moderation or voting), but it would be a new idea worth exploring I guess.

 

[7hm]

The problem with procedurally created content (and thus the reason OP won't find what he's looking for in such a game) is that it is ultimately devoid of any backstory/meaning.

If the point would simply be about placing any random building at an barely accessible place then it could be done quite easily.
But what's the point in finding this building? It will be soulless.

You could also make a number of prefabricated "tiles" that are then placed randomly somewhere, but it's not a real step forward from the original premise: while the map may be different between you and the sucker that played the game before you, you will encounter the same tiles, again spoiling the fun.

Instead what I could imagine is massive amount of user created content that is placed somewhat randomly, maybe according to some variables that determine what is placed where, etc.

To reduce furry-porn BDSM-lairs you would have to implement some quality control (e.g. through moderation or voting), but it would be a new idea worth exploring I guess.

Good procedurally generated content supports hand-crafted work rather than standing on it's own.

I'm going to use DCSS again because that's what I'm playing a shitton of lately. It's light on story of course, but big on world exploration (in the sense of exploring the dungeon that is created each time you start a new game)

As your character progresses through the dungeon you see "vaults" or "mini-vaults" that have been made by hand with randomized elements added in (usually). These add character and life to the game and help you in creating a narrative for your experience. It's not just walking through a completely randomized setting the entire time - it's finding yourself in front a castle which you have the choice to ignore or to storm, or a shrine to an evil god surrounded by his minions, or whatever.

Anyone can create vaults as well - if they work in game, they get added. If they don't, they don't. Over time the amount of content that works grows and the content that doesn't work is filtered out. It's a good system that really keeps the game fresh. Even old players can experience something new.

Spelunky has a system where it's random, but based on pre-fabricated blocks of tiles. This is also something that could work.

And you could add quests / more explicit narrative to a game like this if you wanted to make it a more encompassing experience, but the issue is that the amount of quality control and testing needed to ensure you have a balanced (in terms of gameplay) and coherent narrative would probably overwhelm any one company's ability to do what Crispy wants.

Until a computer can generate a storyline that isn't ass, you won't get what you want Crispy. In the meantime play roguelikes.

 

[Gord]

However much fun roguelikes can be (I'm playing a lot of DCSS myself recently), they still are not much more than hack'n'slash games with a admittedly very complex (and p'n'p like) set of rules and nice randomized dungeons.

Thing is, it's not only light on the story department, story is practically non existent.
If you would add more tiles (vaults) that tell some sort of story though, it might go in the right direction.

 

[SCO]

Do you remember that random detective web game? It was posted here ages ago.

 

[DraQ]

Is some sort of convincing randomization the answer?

It *could* be. You can make the world huge and procedural, and you can randomize the locations of your EEs or other exploration rewards so that meaningful information about them cannot be communicated between players (note that this doesn't preclude subtle breadcrumb trails - those can be generated 'backwards' from points of interest). Such approach would be easiest to implement in *proper* spasims, because any point of interest is going to be either:
-deep-space object far from any system (simulation of orbital mechanics not necessary)
-in-system object (obeying orbital mechanics like any other body, making it easy to place procedurally)
-surface object attached to planetary surface (or atmospheric floater)

In the end, however there are still limits - you're limited by the amount of work you can put into creating handmade content and you're limited by the proportion of your handmade content you're willing to put into out-of-the way stuff 99% of players won't ever see. The only way to remove those limits would be procedural generation so sophisticated it could generate content virtually indistinguishable from good handcrafted one - that would be jackpot.

Do note that I agree with the general concept of unique playthroughs and with the general approach, there are just some difficulties I wanted to point out.

Bethesda still is the best in this gameworld building aspect of the industry.

Not any longer, or maybe they are but they are too shit at it for it to matter.

I can only speak for Morrowind

Morrowind was easily one of the best worlds, but current bethesda is not Morrowind, it's oblivion and even in the gameworld building aspect alone, oblivion fell flat on its face.

I fucking love well-hidden locations that can only be found by reading and interpreting some obscure reference.

I am reminded of our semi-recent PM exchange.

My point is that ground work is slowly being laid for artificial population of a large gameworld on both fronts

My problem with this statement is that not really.

Groundwork was being laid in this area, and not so slowly either, around 1993-1995. We had Daggerfall, we had Frontier and FFE and we had huge boner for things yet to come. The problem is that the industry has largely retreated from this difficult, but promising path and went with "cinematic experience". Even if some progress is being made, it's not laying down groundwork, it's excavating primitive ruins from before the golden age long past.

Now that you mention MMO's, there's one title that came to my mind - Infinity Universe .
They claim to have procedurally generated universe of astronomical proportions (actually millions of stars, each with its own planets). I remember them stating that a huge part of their world will probably remain explored by the players, so it might be something you're looking for .

Check it out in action - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7eREddMjt4

That looks promising and a worthy successor to Frontier/FFE. Shame about it being MMO and shame about shitty ship design. I dig the skybox, is it procedurally generated based on star colour/brightness/density in given direction?

 

[sgc_meltdown]

Yeah Noctis is the only example of this that I can think of aside from large sandboxes like the sims or black and white or free-roam games with multiple interactions coinciding to make an incident unique.

Note that I haven't played this because it isn't quite my thing yet, but reading about it was interesting. Procedurally generated with 78 billion stars and the ability to land and explore planets, so you can EASILY be the one guy who finds this planet with a lone creature at the base of a volcano with unique crystal tree like structures around it or someshit like that.

Basically the game is you zipping around until the random variables meet up in ways that you find interesting or unique. So there's your trove of shit only you could possibly have found element sorted.

Here's an example.
http://anynowhere.com/bb/result.php?m=97611

Note actual resolution and developer inability to update said engine in past decade, like some kind of reverse dwarf fortress.

 

[7hm]

However much fun roguelikes can be (I'm playing a lot of DCSS myself recently), they still are not much more than hack'n'slash games with a admittedly very complex (and p'n'p like) set of rules and nice randomized dungeons.

Thing is, it's not only light on the story department, story is practically non existent.
If you would add more tiles (vaults) that tell some sort of story though, it might go in the right direction.

DCSS is a combat game and purports to be nothing else.

There are roguelikes trending in a story / questing direction though. Dwarf Fortress being a more obvious example. Toady is putting a lot of effort into creating features that brings out more explicit narratives and more traditional "RPG" features like questing. In 10 years maybe we'll have something.

You might also want to check out tome, which has quests and such and is a better game than the DF adventure mode atm. The level of storytelling is obviously basic and the quests are pre-made with alteration via randomization.

At the end of the day, you can't have a unique experience without the game being so shit you're the only who plays it, or procedurally generated content.

 

[King Crispy]

My point is that ground work is slowly being laid for artificial population of a large gameworld on both fronts

My problem with this statement is that not really.

Groundwork was being laid in this area, and not so slowly either, around 1993-1995. We had Daggerfall, we had Frontier and FFE and we had huge boner for things yet to come. The problem is that the industry has largely retreated from this difficult, but promising path and went with "cinematic experience". Even if some progress is being made, it's not laying down groundwork, it's excavating primitive ruins from before the golden age long past.

You're right, of course. Thanks for the reminder.

Let me spin it off in a slightly different direction then. I admit freely that video, audio, and content fidelity are all equally important in my ideal RPG experience, so I do appreciate in many ways the strides that are taking place in the former two areas in RPG's as of late. Yes, I do rage at the resulting retardation, but I consider the downswing of the content quality to be an unfortunate necessity towards that selfish end. I am willing to bear with it if that means someday I'll get products closer to my dream game.

That being said, the groundwork I meant did partially stem from Oblivion's soil erosion and from other better projects like Risen, the Gothics, and MMO's. Their landmasses, while almost never exceeding that of a Daggerfall, are becoming much more realistic and believable. This has to be accomplished in order to avoid stagnating or going backwards in our desire to explore them.

Skyrim sounds like it's making further strides in the refining of a more flexible and sprawling content landscape, but no I do not trust them this time. It's going to be interesting to compare the progress made from their last TES game to this one, just as it was from Morrowind. I'm hoping we're going to get a nice blending of that game's better depth with Oblivion's (at the time) attractiveness.

I do believe there's an upper ceiling to much of this. There's only so much visual realism one can attain. Likewise, there's only so deep you can go when it comes to a gameworld's detail, down to anything larger than a pebble. Once RAM and processor cores reach a critical mass, and once cloud computing truly gets mixed in, that threshold will be reached as well. The last thing remaining is the intellectual content, and it certainly will prove to be the most difficult to advance. It, I believe, is the one thing in CRPG's that has no ceiling.

I guess I can imagine a future game studio following a design process that involves less and less input required to lay out their world, its bone and muscle structure, freeing up much more creativity to be applied to its heart and mind, which may prove far too complex to ever significantly rely on procedural generation to ever be convincing. It'd actually be pretty scary if it did.

Where does that leave my original concept, that of encountering truly unique or custom-personalized content? I guess the answer is the more people input a game's crafting has, the better chance of it. That rules out random iterations of it, unless we wait maybe fifty years. Or never?

 

[JarlFrank]

Until a computer can generate a storyline that isn't ass, you won't get what you want Crispy. In the meantime play roguelikes.

I'm very positive that a computer can generate better storylines with better writing than either Bethesda or, especially, Bioware.

 

[sgc_meltdown]

I'm very positive that a computer can generate better storylines with better writing than either Bethesda or, especially, Bioware.

http://www.seventhsanctum.com/generate. ... e=storygen
http://www.seventhsanctum.com/generate. ... me=lostciv

This is a tale about how people miss the obvious. The story is about a grave robber, an ambassador, a gambler, and a lonely archivist who must work with a disorganized seer. It starts in a coliseum in a war-torn land. The story climaxes with someone taking a bath.

This compassionate expansive kingdom was noted for its advanced pharmacology. It was destroyed by a conspiracy because of the people's extreme over-indulgence, leaving behind only culinary knowledge and temples.

 

[7hm]

Until a computer can generate a storyline that isn't ass, you won't get what you want Crispy. In the meantime play roguelikes.

I'm very positive that a computer can generate better storylines with better writing than either Bethesda or, especially, Bioware.

I don't even think it matters. Might and Magic could be redone to be entirely randomly generated. Especially 3-5. You'd really need to think out how to do the dungeon design in terms of puzzles (are there any roguelikes out there with strong puzzle components?) but the NPCs and character interaction are pretty flimsy.