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Adding more layers to JRPG combat

Falksi

Arcane
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The other major part of the problem is that in the mid 90's or so, developers stopped restricting where players could save. I mean, technically they required save points, but putting one right before the boss at the end of the dungeon and letting the party recover there defeats the entire purpose of the dungeon to begin with.

I completely agree. The issue developers were trying to fix is people feel like they have wasted their time if they lose to a boss and have to do the whole dungeon over again. This will have people drop the game very quickly. Even with save points before bosses anytime a player hits a road bump it makes players drop-off.
You can see this easily by viewing achievement percentages on games. Like my first game you see a huge drop off of players once they reach the first "tough" boss.
Well, it really depends on what you want, more people finishing your game (so you put in story mode) or a pure experience regardless of whether players reach the end or not. What you won't be able to do is make people enjoy harder experience if they don't like them. There's a group of people who like difficulty, but the larger segment of players don't and they want handholding or they won't play your game.
I certainly think those trends are the greater ones.

But there does seem to be a renewed interest in more challenging JRPGs now, mostly bought about through the Souls games. and people trying the SMT series after getting into Persona. It's still the minority audience, but I think Final Fantasy 16 marked a watershed moment in gaming as it came in for loads of stick for being way too easy, despite the franchise largely being easy since the 90's.
 

Lincolnberry

Educated
Joined
Dec 2, 2019
Messages
88
Bravely Default (at least 1 and 2, haven't played second). Ability to bank and spend additional turns (enemies too) and at least in 2 also having speed influence number of turns was pretty cool and I felt added a lot of tactical risk/reward.
 

MerchantKing

Learned
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Jun 5, 2023
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1,229
BTW, is it really appropriate to say there is such a thing as JRPG combat? The combat in classic JRPGs is just what you'd find in some drpgs with a different interface. The solution to make combat more complex is simply to more closely emulate Wizardry.
 

Nifft Batuff

Prophet
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Nov 14, 2018
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The other major part of the problem is that in the mid 90's or so, developers stopped restricting where players could save. I mean, technically they required save points, but putting one right before the boss at the end of the dungeon and letting the party recover there defeats the entire purpose of the dungeon to begin with. Every arrow fired after you leave town should be an arrow you don't have when you meet the boss. For that matter, when attrition like that is a real threat, you don't even need a boss to make a dungeon compelling. Trips between towns should be dangerous as well, not just a foregone conclusion.
Saves everywhere was never a problem for classic RPGs in the '90s, at least for PC. Limited saves is more a modern consolitis (de)evolution. The problem is not the possibility to save, but the fact that you can rest everywhere and/or that you can rest without consuming resources.
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
15,069
The other major part of the problem is that in the mid 90's or so, developers stopped restricting where players could save. I mean, technically they required save points, but putting one right before the boss at the end of the dungeon and letting the party recover there defeats the entire purpose of the dungeon to begin with. Every arrow fired after you leave town should be an arrow you don't have when you meet the boss. For that matter, when attrition like that is a real threat, you don't even need a boss to make a dungeon compelling. Trips between towns should be dangerous as well, not just a foregone conclusion.
Saves everywhere was never a problem for classic RPGs in the '90s, at least for PC. Limited saves is more a modern consolitis (de)evolution. The problem is not the possibility to save, but the fact that you can rest everywhere and/or that you can rest without consuming resources.
Saving everywhere absolutely breaks classic RPGs. Go ahead and try give me an example where it doesn't and I can easily show you how it does.
 

Grauken

Gourd vibes only
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The other major part of the problem is that in the mid 90's or so, developers stopped restricting where players could save. I mean, technically they required save points, but putting one right before the boss at the end of the dungeon and letting the party recover there defeats the entire purpose of the dungeon to begin with. Every arrow fired after you leave town should be an arrow you don't have when you meet the boss. For that matter, when attrition like that is a real threat, you don't even need a boss to make a dungeon compelling. Trips between towns should be dangerous as well, not just a foregone conclusion.
Saves everywhere was never a problem for classic RPGs in the '90s, at least for PC. Limited saves is more a modern consolitis (de)evolution. The problem is not the possibility to save, but the fact that you can rest everywhere and/or that you can rest without consuming resources.
Saving everywhere absolutely breaks classic RPGs. Go ahead and try give me an example where it doesn't and I can easily show you how it does.
Wizardry 7
 

Nifft Batuff

Prophet
Joined
Nov 14, 2018
Messages
3,229
The other major part of the problem is that in the mid 90's or so, developers stopped restricting where players could save. I mean, technically they required save points, but putting one right before the boss at the end of the dungeon and letting the party recover there defeats the entire purpose of the dungeon to begin with. Every arrow fired after you leave town should be an arrow you don't have when you meet the boss. For that matter, when attrition like that is a real threat, you don't even need a boss to make a dungeon compelling. Trips between towns should be dangerous as well, not just a foregone conclusion.
Saves everywhere was never a problem for classic RPGs in the '90s, at least for PC. Limited saves is more a modern consolitis (de)evolution. The problem is not the possibility to save, but the fact that you can rest everywhere and/or that you can rest without consuming resources.
Saving everywhere absolutely breaks classic RPGs. Go ahead and try give me an example where it doesn't and I can easily show you how it does.
All the RPGs made in the '90s.
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
Joined
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Messages
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All the RPGs made in the '90s.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfA5DnSUfUM

Oh what's this, a way to get infinite money, power armour, and the best weapons in the game before you've hit level 3? How did that happen. It's almost like failing a skill check is supposed to get you killed or something, instead of having zero consequences.

Wizardry 7
Haven't actually played it beyond the first hour, but isn't this a game full of trapped chests, save-or-die spells, and fucking random stat gains on level up? I.E. Things that are supposed to be random but aren't if you just save beforehand. How many difficult fights in the game can be completely trivialized by reloading until a sleep or silence spell or the like sticks? I'm guessing a metric fuckton.
 

Grauken

Gourd vibes only
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Wizardry 7
Haven't actually played it beyond the first hour, but isn't this a game full of trapped chests, save-or-die spells, and fucking random stat gains on level up? I.E. Things that are supposed to be random but aren't if you just save beforehand. How many difficult fights in the game can be completely trivialized by reloading until a sleep or silence spell or the like sticks? I'm guessing a metric fuckton.
Well, if you ever finish the game, come back here and report on how that worked out
 

Nifft Batuff

Prophet
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Oh what's this, a way to get infinite money, power armour, and the best weapons in the game before you've hit level 3? How did that happen. It's almost like failing a skill check is supposed to get you killed or something, instead of having zero consequences.
And you solve this by using a checkpoints? Lol.
 

Grauken

Gourd vibes only
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It's a pointless discussion anyway, with enough meta-knowledge and infinite patience every game can be broken, save-everywhere or not, but that doesn't reflect how most people play games.
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
Joined
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Oh what's this, a way to get infinite money, power armour, and the best weapons in the game before you've hit level 3? How did that happen. It's almost like failing a skill check is supposed to get you killed or something, instead of having zero consequences.
And you solve this by using a checkpoints? Lol.
I mean, yeah? If savescumming to loot 2000$ off a mechant takes an hour instead of 3 minutes, then there's no reason to do it instead of just playing the game normally for an hour and getting your 2000$ through something enjoyable. If, on the other hand, it's so quick and easy, then there's no reason to have pickpocketing, gambling, outdoorsman, stealth... hey, those are all the skills that 'suck' that's a weird coincidence! People follow the path of least resistance. Savescumming tends to make that path... not fun. There are examples of the opposite, such as people farming black puddings in Nethack for hours for fear of death, but such examples tend to merely be crutches for unskilled players, rather than legitimately quick and efficient ways to go through the game.

Well, if you ever finish the game, come back here and report on how that worked out
It's on my todo list. Might be next up after the current LP. I intended to try it back in the day, but then decided I should try Wiz 6 first because of the save carryover stuff, but then went blind from all the neon in the interface and forgot to go back to 7.

Serious question: Wizardry 7 or Grimoire? Which should I play first? I played a few hours of Grimoire recently and enjoyed it quite a bit in spite of some painful interface decisions. Is it the superior take on the genre or was Wizardry 7 the peak?
 

Grauken

Gourd vibes only
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Serious question: Wizardry 7 or Grimoire? Which should I play first? I played a few hours of Grimoire recently and enjoyed it quite a bit in spite of some painful interface decisions. Is it the superior take on the genre or was Wizardry 7 the peak?

Ha, difficult question. Wizardry 7 inspired so much of Grimoire that I feel like one would appreciate the later more if you played the former, though both are fine games in their own right. Wizardry 7 has the edge in visual cohesiveness if that matters to you. And if you ever play W6-W7-W8 in a row not even Grimoire can compete with that. For me W7 is still the slightly better game, but I enjoyed both, so it might really come down to your taste in the end.
 

anvi

Prophet
Village Idiot
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Kelethin
Savescumming trumps everything. This was one of Rusty's bugbears I used to like seeing him fight about. There are some modern games which just have you respawn when you die and there's no saving or loading. I think that's much better.
 

Nifft Batuff

Prophet
Joined
Nov 14, 2018
Messages
3,229
Savescumming trumps everything. This was one of Rusty's bugbears I used to like seeing him fight about. There are some modern games which just have you respawn when you die and there's no saving or loading. I think that's much better.
Games with non persistent world and where everything respawn, you included, are cancer.

And, by the way, Dark Souls (just to cite the game that is always cited in this kind of discussion) has save everywhere. You can stop/save and hop back to the game when you wish.

But I think this is an old and trite discussion, and this is neither the proper thread...
 

anvi

Prophet
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It doesn't have to affect enemies, and it can still let you leave when you want, it saves your progress constantly. Just doesn't let you go back in time.
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
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How is being able to infinitely redo a fight any different than reloading a save?
How is restarting the entire game over to redo a fight any different from reloading a savestate 2 seconds before you got hit so you can select a different option this time? If you can see the difference there, it's the exact same thing with having to reload from an hour ago vs 3 minutes ago, just a matter of scale.
 
Joined
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The worst thing about savescumming is that it affects your behavior as a player. It becomes more efficient to use trial and error and bruteforce problems instead of using strategies that have a higher probability of success. Then even if you win you don't feel any accomplishment.
 
Joined
Sep 1, 2020
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Some things off the top of my head:

FF10's turn based system. I like how it shows you the sequence of turns for each participant. Other games also have turns based on Agility, but they don't show you when your turn or the enemy's comes up. This lets you plan with more precision. I prefer any kind of turn based to RTwP systems like ATB.

If you're gonna have ATB, though, then Chrono Trigger got it right. Enemies are not static, they move around in random fashion as your bar fills up. You have to take enemy movement into account when using AoE attacks, such as those that attack in a straight line from your character. You can hit several enemies with a single attack if you time it correctly, but doing so involves wasting some of your bar. This is the only reason to have ATB, imo.

Chrono Cross added an elemental layer to combat. The more an element is used, the more powerful it becomes. Since each character has an innate elemental alignment, this can turn into a decisive advantage or disadvantage. This forces you to pay attention to something other than healing and damage. Even if you set up proper defenses and healing adequately, an enemy that has taken control of the elemental alignment may use a more powerful attack that overwhelms your defenses.

FF8 lets you equip spells in the form of junctions. A fire spell may reinforce your strength, your elemental defense against fire, or your elemental attack. This system was criticized because you had to draw spells from enemies up to a maximum of 100, a repetitive and tedious process. You could simplify the system by having just one of each with the same function. I actually like FF8's system of spell accumulation, although I prefer to refine them from items.

FF8 had the best idea for a bestiary, an addicting card game where each card is represented by a monster. Generally speaking, the more powerful and rare the monster, the more powerful, rare and valuable the card. You could further convert cards into useful items and spells, a perfect gameplay loop.

Vagrant Story let you fuse equipment in the manner of a monster breeding game. You can spend many hours forging your own equipment from all the pieces you gathered. In addition, equipment could be made of several materials which serve as modifiers in the way of roguelike games, something I always like to see. You could also increase the affinity of equipment by using it against a certain type of enemy. I like the idea of a shield you use against undead, or reptilians, not because it comes with a +1 for that, but because you made it so.
 
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