Age of Decadence Writing

[denizsi]

Some of the voices about the writing in the game in village idiot's thread about merchants in AoD, got me thinking. Judging from the screens I've seen so far, writing in the game looks ok to me, and even clever and entertaining in some instances, if not with simplistic errors sometimes. I wonder how much my appreciation of writing has got to do with me not being a native English speaker.

So, please vote only if you're a native English speaker. I really wonder how native speakers of English consider the writing in the game to be.

Imagine there is a 6th option in the poll, "master of words!", that's not votable.

Thinking that Americans may not appreciate/like British humour and vice versa, including other native English speakers, I also encourage voters to explain themselves.

 

[Claw]

Oh, screw you.

I don't give a fuck about those people's opinion.

I didn't vote, but many people are pretentious jerks. Like that moron fastjack who I wanted to reply to with "Your post made me cringe." but chose to not give him even that validation.
Seriously, look at the garbage he offers as alternative. Oh yeah, a flashy crossbow indeed. It's certainly amusing that the coward starts begging for mercy before noticing that you are indeed armed.

I've resisted most attempts to improve Vince's texts. Sure, there are some glaring mistakes. I'm all in favour of correcting errors. But often it seems to be more a matter of taste, and I for one like Vince's style alot. I don't give a fuck what the natives think. I really don't.
Why should my opinion be less important? Am I less of a customer? Do I get a barbarian discount?

 

[Hory]

The "native speaker" focus of this poll is pretty useless without a "non-native speaker" focused poll to compare results to.

 

[Mr Happy]

I'm American, and I'm with deniszi: the writing looks fine, with a fair amount of particularily well done lines. Probably better then a game like Fallout. Obviously, any piece of writing could benefit from a read-through job by one or two outside sources, but I don't know what all these pansy-ass BioWare-game-playing Volvo-driving shitbirds who can't pronounce their r's are complaining about. From what I've read, the writing in no way takes away from the game. The whiners are probably British.

 

[Jaime Lannister]

Good, and yes, I'm a native speaker. The typos and occasional awkwardness aren't too much of a problem. I guess I'm just glad that the game doesn't throw "thee"s and "thou"s all over the place.

 

[Azarkon]

Oh, screw you.

I don't give a fuck about those people's opinion.

I didn't vote, but many people are pretentious jerks. Like that moron fastjack who I wanted to reply to with "Your post made me cringe." but chose to not give him even that validation.
Seriously, look at the garbage he offers as alternative. Oh yeah, a flashy crossbow indeed. It's certainly amusing that the coward starts begging for mercy before noticing that you are indeed armed.

I've resisted most attempts to improve Vince's texts. Sure, there are some glaring mistakes. I'm all in favour of correcting errors. But often it seems to be more a matter of taste, and I for one like Vince's style alot. I don't give a fuck what the natives think. I really don't.
Why should my opinion be less important? Am I less of a customer? Do I get a barbarian discount?

I would think their opinions matter because VD is trying to reach a more general audience, who is going to judge his game based on their appreciation of English, not yours. Still, if the errors aren't glaring and the writing doesn't feel clumsy, I see no reason why you should be changing it. I don't really like the writing, mind you, but I have peculiar, lyrical tastes. So long as it works for the audience VD is trying to sell it to, great. But how can you be the judge of that?

Market studies are a good thing. But screw the native speaker crap. VD might be selling primarily to Europeans, for all you know.

 

[cardtrick]

Voted good, but it was a tough call between that and very good. This poll would have been more meaningful with some examples. If PS:T, KOTOR2, and MOTB are "very good", then AoD is "good." If you consider Avellone a "master of words" and thus outside the realm of the poll, then I'd say AoD was "very good." The writing is certainly better than Fallout or most/all Bioware games. (Again, I'm neglecting copy editing, which does need to happen.)

 

[Ion Flux]

Englisch iz mai muther tung.

I voted "good", because it is, and because I haven't played the game yet. I've liked what I've seen so far. The controversy is odd in my opinion.

 

[Azarkon]

I would personally like to see more samples. The best and the worst. Not enough to spoil the story, but enough to get a general feeling of what has changed since VD last visited the writing question. Maybe the Iron Tower forums already have a thread for this.

 

[Crichton]

I give it a solid average, based on what I've seen so far.

From the little samples I've seen, it 'gets the job done', that is, it doesn't leave out critical information, which is the number one problem with game writing.

There are all sorts of little points where the sentence structure looks childish or the phrasing makes you think that the author thought the line up in a different language and translated it. But I'd say it holds up about as well as The Witcher or ToEE, if a far cry from PS:T or Max Payne.

 

[spacemoose]

for a game that's got so much riding on dialogue and situations being described/resolved in text, it could be better

 

[Vault Dweller]

There are all sorts of little points where the sentence structure looks childish...

Examples would be helpful.

I would personally like to see more samples. The best and the worst. Not enough to spoil the story, but enough to get a general feeling of what has changed since VD last visited the writing question. Maybe the Iron Tower forums already have a thread for this.

Try the Let's Play AoD thread.

for a game that's got so much riding on dialogue and situations being described/resolved in text, it could be better

Care to make some suggestions (other then "learn to rite better" or "hire a writer")? How about rewriting some paragraphs or conversations?

 

[Crichton]

Examples would be helpful.

Here's everyone's favorite:

The merchant is still or already awake.

A normal person would simply write: "The merchant is awake" or "The merchant is awake and ready."

If you wanted to make some comment about the ambiguity of the merchant being awake at this hour it would have to be something like: "The merchant is already awake, or he hasn't slept."

...barbed bolts are extremely effective against low armored opponents...

There is just no way on this earth that that works as a predicate adjective.
-Barbed bolts are effective against poorly armored opponents.
or
-Barbed bolts are effective against lightly armored opponents.

I've got a contract on.. His name is.. and he is... He should be dead by

You see this from kids all the time. "I have a dog. His name is Rex. He is brown and 3 years old."

The problem is that they don't know that many ways to put a sentence together.

"I've got a contract for you, if you're interested. There's a merchant named X down at the Inn. If he's dead before morning, the Commercium will be grateful to the tune of 200 dinars. If you're in, you get 50 now for your expenses; you can pick up the rest in the morning, if you can prove he's dead."

As a side note, 'The Commercium' sounds stupid to begin with, but without a definite article, it doesn't even make sense. I don't know if those are typos or it's deliberate, but it's got to stop.

It also looks like several different people are writing parts of the same convos and they aren't speaking to each other.
http://www.rpgwatch.com/show/imagev...ent operator doesn't stand much of a chance."

 

[Claw]

I would think their opinions matter because VD is trying to reach a more general audience, who is going to judge his game based on their appreciation of English, not yours.

I am not part of the general audience why? In case you didn't notice - although I don't know how you could miss it, unless you're retarded - denizsi specifically asked native English speakers, and noone else, to vote. Is that the definition of "a more general audience"?

I see no reason why you should be changing it.

Neither do I. What drugs are you on?

But how can you be the judge of that?

The way I see it, I'm as good a judge of that as anybody else.

But screw the native speaker crap. VD might be selling primarily to Europeans, for all you know.

Who the fuck are you talking to?

 

[galsiah]

If you wanted to make some comment about the ambiguity of the merchant being awake at this hour it would have to be something like: "The merchant is already awake, or he hasn't slept."

Something like that, but that sounds a bit crap too. I can't think of a terse way to say it effectively. I agree that it sounds awkward at present.

I've got a contract on.. His name is.. and he is... He should be dead by

You see this from kids all the time...
The problem is that they don't know that many ways to put a sentence together.
"I've got a contract for you, if you're interested. There's a merchant named X down at the Inn. If he's dead before morning, the Commercium will be grateful to the tune of 200 dinars. If you're in, you get 50 now for your expenses; you can pick up the rest in the morning, if you can prove he's dead."

Your problem is that you've ignored the focus and content of the statements. You've focused on improving style with no regard to context, intent, or the character of the speaker (and it's arguable that you've improved the style).

"I've got a contract... His name is..." gets right to the point - it's clear immediately that the guy in question is the target.
"I've got a contract... There's a merchant..." does not.

"He should be dead by..." clearly indicates that this is an expectation.
"If he's dead before morning..." does not.

Neleos wants to get something done, not to win a creative writing competition.

Also, "If you're... if he's... if you... if you..." don't we see that from children all the time?

"It's a known fact" also doesn't jive.

Yet people do say it. It's a weird world.

 

[Azarkon]

I am not part of the general audience why? In case you didn't notice - although I don't know how you could miss it, unless you're retarded - denizsi specifically asked native English speakers, and noone else, to vote. Is that the definition of "a more general audience"?

You're only one member of an audience. Your judgment is only as valid as mine.

The way I see it, I'm as good a judge of that as anybody else.

You're as good a judge as one person. Not a replacement for a poll, not even one conducted over just native speakers. You're retarded to suggest otherwise.

Who the fuck are you talking to?

The OP, for that line. The rest of the post was directed at you.

 

[Claw]

You're only one member of an audience. Your judgment is only as valid as mine.

I have to disagree. You're clearly retarded, so my judgment is infinitely more valid than yours.

 

[Azarkon]

Lawl. No argument, boy?

 

[Crichton]

"I've got a contract... His name is..." gets right to the point - it's clear immediately that the guy in question is the target.
"I've got a contract... There's a merchant..." does not.

"He should be dead by..." clearly indicates that this is an expectation.
"If he's dead before morning..." does not.

Neleos wants to get something done, not to win a creative writing competition.

Also, "If you're... if he's... if you... if you..." don't we see that from children all the time?

There's no sense in trying to read each sentence out of context. The only reason to give the information in the 2nd sentence is because it relates to the first. By the time you've read the 3rd sentence, there's no ambiguity. Leaving them all as single 'X is Y' statements with no clauses doesn't make it sound direct, it makes it sound procedurally generated.

As for the conditionals, they're a necessary part of the job offer because in the game world, the PC is being offered a job and success is uncertain. (even if in the game, he's being railroaded and if he fails, he has to reload)

You can still get around them. This is English after all, there's a thousand ways to say anything, but you'll be stuck with some really awkward indicative clauses; "...,provided that you can prove he's dead" , "assuming that you accept the job, of course".

 

[DarkUnderlord]

Age of Decadence :: Attack of the Grammar Nazis

Also, it's independent, bitch. ZOMG dialogue in dis gaem suks! :Russian RPG:

 

[galsiah]

There's no sense in trying to read each sentence out of context. The only reason to give the information in the 2nd sentence is because it relates to the first. By the time you've read the 3rd sentence, there's no ambiguity.

Sure, but I didn't say that it was ambiguous - only that it was less direct.

Leaving them all as single 'X is Y' statements with no clauses doesn't make it sound direct, it makes it sound procedurally generated.

It can perfectly well do both. However, since most of the audience aren't looking at it through a how-was-this-game-designed lens, I think they're much more likely to see directness than procedural generation.

As for the conditionals, they're a necessary part of the job offer because in the game world, the PC is being offered a job and success is uncertain.

They're a necessary part of the logic of the situation. They're not a necessary part of the offering character's speech. Most people don't use half the conditionals demanded by the logic of a situation - either they're intended implicitly, one outcome is assumptive, or they're not thought about at all.
In particular, speakers with an agenda - e.g. salesmen, commanders, businessmen... - aren't going to give equal weight to all logical possibilities. They'll emphasize the outcomes/choices they want/expect and often not mention others at all.

Look at VD's text - no "if"s and only one "should". Most of it is just assumptive. There's no need for Neleos to go through the various permutations of events, detailing how you might fuck things up or refuse the job. He tells you how things should be (assumptive "if"). He tells you what the job is worth (implicit "if" without a hint of awkwardness). He doesn't bother to say "If you're interested..." since it's redundant, gets him nothing, and brings the idea of possible refusal into the listener's mind.


VD's original is that way for a reason. Certainly the flow is not amazing, but if it's either flow or substance that suffers, let it be the flow. "Improving" the style, only to lose the intent and character of the speakers, is no improvement.

 

[Azarkon]

Try the Let's Play AoD thread.

I just went through it. The dialogue is definitely not bad, and have improved significantly from the originals. Not a very diverse sampling so far, though - feels like everyone (including the narrator, but possibly excluding Neleos) is an arrogant, sarcastic prick . I'll be interested to see some variance. So far, all the characters make me want to kill them. I'm sure that was the intent.

 

[Ion Flux]

Mr. Webster says, "You are a jive turkey."

"It's a known fact" also doesn't jive.

Main Entry:
1 "jive"
Pronunciation:
\ˈjīv\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
origin unknown
Date:
1928

1: swing music or the dancing performed to it2 a: glib, deceptive, or foolish talk b: the jargon of hipsters c: a special jargon of difficult or slang terms
— jivey Listen to the pronunciation of jivey \ˈjī-vē\ adjective

Main Entry:
3 "jibe"
Function:
intransitive verb
Inflected Form(s):
jibed; jib·ing
Etymology:
origin unknown
Date:
1813

: to be in accord : agree

 

[Kingston]

Age of Decadence :: Attack of the Grammar Nazis

Also, it's independent, bitch. ZOMG dialogue in dis gaem suks! :Russian RPG:

Heh.

That screenie has one thing I'd improve on though. You've got a dialogue option indicated by a number (in this case a "2") and then right after it another number ("2. 200? Doesn't..."). It looks a bit odd. I'd rather have all the simple big numbers (that end in 0000...) in letters. I know the official grammar rules say that you only need to type out numbers smaller than ten, but fuck da rules!

 

[Vault Dweller]

Here's everyone's favorite:

The merchant is still or already awake.

A normal person would simply write: "The merchant is awake" or "The merchant is awake and ready."

If you wanted to make some comment about the ambiguity of the merchant being awake at this hour it would have to be something like: "The merchant is already awake, or he hasn't slept."

You call that an improvement? I can go with "the merchant is awake" though to make everyone happy.

I've got a contract on.. His name is.. and he is... He should be dead by

You see this from kids all the time. "I have a dog. His name is Rex. He is brown and 3 years old."

The problem is that they don't know that many ways to put a sentence together.

Oh, please. There is a difference between a poorly told story ("I have a dog...") and clear and concise instructions.

As a side note, 'The Commercium' sounds stupid to begin with, but without a definite article, it doesn't even make sense. I don't know if those are typos or it's deliberate, but it's got to stop.

You are the only one who has a problem with it, but we'll take it under consideration.

"It's a known fact" also doesn't jive.

Maybe it doesn't, but it's a commonly used phrase.