Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Age of Wonders 4

Absinthe

Arcane
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Messages
4,062
Sounds like in AoW 4 not only is race a joke but culture (the equivalent of a AoW 3 class) is underwhelming as well and everyone ends up playing the same mash of tomes. This is really looking like a major step down from previous AoW games.

Can someone elaborate what is going on with the district system and if there are any innovations that you like about AoW 4?
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,022
Pathfinder: Wrath
EL is 10 years old, so I wouldn't exactly say it's contemporary, but there literally are no fantasy 4X games since then. Unless you count Dominions 5 as "new", but I wouldn't.
 

Zboj Lamignat

Arcane
Joined
Feb 15, 2012
Messages
5,552
Vanilla EL was good and sort of anti-AoW3, since the strategy layer was fun while the combat horrible and those two games complemented each other very nice. It's just a shame that all the dlc bar the small first one was plain shit and it never got the development it deserved.
 

Mortmal

Arcane
Joined
Jun 15, 2009
Messages
9,185
EL is 10 years old, so I wouldn't exactly say it's contemporary, but there literally are no fantasy 4X games since then. Unless you count Dominions 5 as "new", but I wouldn't.
Almost 10 yes.. Recent reviews complains about it not working on windows11 apparently. It was ok but never fantastic. their woke civ, humankind never did good , so i guess its dead too.
 
Joined
Jun 6, 2010
Messages
2,279
Location
Milan, Italy
Almost 10 yes.. Recent reviews complains about it not working on windows11 apparently. It was ok but never fantastic. their woke civ, humankind never did good , so i guess its dead too.
I remember reading raving reviews of, buying it... And pretty much fucking hating it in a practical sense, frankly.
I didn't like the combat even remotely (which at least to me is anything but a "minor sidenote" in this genre), I wasn't a fan of the aesthetic, either (all factions looked way better in their respective "cover" artwork than in practical terms) nor of the bare-boned UI in that "professional toolset style" so typical of all Amplitude games.
 

Zboj Lamignat

Arcane
Joined
Feb 15, 2012
Messages
5,552
I wonder what the plan for dealing with the tome circus is, because they sure as hell should have one. Current meta is shifting strongly and quickly into simply checking which units can accept the most enchantments. Which leads to "hilarious" results, namely t1/2 outperforming t4, or even t5, since you can't buff most of them nearly as much.

Damn, the "T4 stacks REEEE" AoW3 meme must've really scarred those guys. And the symptoms are getting worse instead of subsiding, since higher tier units being shit is another thing that PF did better. Probably another proof that, as a dev, you should have your own vision and make the game you want to make, instead of giving in and catering to the small vocal group of crazies inhabiting your forums/discord/whatever.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,022
Pathfinder: Wrath
The problems with T4 spam were a) it was too easy to get to them and then spam them, b) you didn't get access to many T4s, so that naturally meant you are going to have doomstacks of 1 type of T4 unit (*cough* horned god *cough*), and c) they were way too powerful compared to anything else. This current issue of seeking units who can accept the most enchantments seems to me to be unintentional and something their playtesters didn't catch. Which isn't surprising because they have the worst playtesters of all time. If they even have playtesters at all tbh.
 

Zboj Lamignat

Arcane
Joined
Feb 15, 2012
Messages
5,552
It was a problem for sure, but not nearly as big as many people constantly tried to make it out to be, at least outside of multiplayer. And PF had some decent ideas about fixing it, but then overshot it by quite a margin and T4 just stopped being all that attractive, plus often you'd never even see them without some lame heavy tech rushing.

Which brings us to the main point: if you see it as a problem, but lack good ideas to fix it and/or can't properly implement them, then just go down the lame arbitrary route. Something as simple as 1 T4 per stack max. Or cuck-a-dox global caps, like with cities, to be increased with research or whatever. Yeah, it's objectively poor design, but I'm willing to bet my bollocks the end result would be much better than that mess that is currently out there for everybody to see.

Or, you know, focus on improving and developing on the strengths of that one game that was actually good instead, but that's just way too crazy of an idea.
 
Joined
Jun 6, 2010
Messages
2,279
Location
Milan, Italy
I wonder what the plan for dealing with the tome circus is, because they sure as hell should have one. Current meta is shifting strongly and quickly into simply checking which units can accept the most enchantments. Which leads to "hilarious" results, namely t1/2 outperforming t4, or even t5, since you can't buff most of them nearly as much.
Which is somewhat hilarious, given that it wasn't even a couple of pages ago in this same thread that some of you were shaking your heads in disappointment about the claim that low tier units were trash and completely outperformed by the high tier ones, with no way to make them viable.
 

Monocause

Arcane
Joined
Aug 15, 2008
Messages
3,656
I wonder what the plan for dealing with the tome circus is, because they sure as hell should have one. Current meta is shifting strongly and quickly into simply checking which units can accept the most enchantments. Which leads to "hilarious" results, namely t1/2 outperforming t4, or even t5, since you can't buff most of them nearly as much.
Which is somewhat hilarious, given that it wasn't even a couple of pages ago in this same thread that some of you were shaking your heads in disappointment about the claim that low tier units were trash and completely outperformed by the high tier ones, with no way to make them viable.

This is the Codex so this is to be expected. About a half of this thread appears to be people shitting on the game, they contradict themselves a fair few times along the way. Some of the criticism sounds like part of these peeps haven't actually played the game but watched a few videos and jumped in to comment - like the "single map size" criticism which is both incorrect and irrelevant.

AoW4 is a good fucking game. There's balance issues (which can be fun for SP but I guess a big problem for MP), but this will steadily improve as patches come. This is a great base to add more content via expansions and it's a joy to play.

The aforementioned "tome circus" is really completely overblown based on the fact that some people are sperging and are finding optimal strategies. Yes, some options are currently clearly better than others. But this will be easy to tweak for the devs and even now provided that you don't care about the "best choice" there's a lot of potential builds and combos that are quite good and very playable - at least in SP and in MP you can work around the balance issues by banning certain builds.

The best thing about AoW4 for me so far, and the most unique, is that the game manages not to overstay its welcome in games but doesn't feel too short either. This is quite an achievement for a 4X game as they historically have a big problem with dragging on in the endgame. Civilisation games have had 6 iterations already and they STILL haven't managed to solve the problem of the endgame slog.

In AoW4 the moment I become really confident I'll win the game, the victory comes fast usually. Didn't have a game of "oh now it's just 50 more turns to build that spaceship/kill remaining 3 civs/collect this and that". And I've had 2 games where victory wasn't certain right up until the end (one of those I lost). Granted, this probably happened in big part because of my lack of experience with the game but can't remember when was the last time I had an experience like that with a Civ game or any other turn based 4X for that matter.
 
Last edited:

Blutwurstritter

Learned
Joined
Sep 18, 2021
Messages
888
Location
Germany
The problem that seems still to remain is high tier unit spam by the AI. But that is an AI problem and not a problem of the units. Giving the AI an economic advantage that allows it to spam those units is poor design. If they can't work without that, they should at least introduce some limit in the AI to avoid spam.

Bit it was a more of a problem in AoW 3, when it was basically the best choice to spam your highest tier unit once you could afford it. This could have been handled by the economy like an increasing upkeep per unit or simple limits. I think the tier 4 units in AoW3 themselves were in a good spot power-wise. But the tier 5 units in AoW 4 are a bit underwhelming. Not just by numbers but also by design, they are fairly boring. They aren't something that I look forward to getting, picking the proper enchantments which are usually in tier 1-2 tomes is much more important.

And after playing some more, I'm absolutely convinced that ranged units with a few enchantments are the way to go. They outstrip everything else in damage, especially in large battles where they can focus fire. Even tier 1 archers can reach easily >60 damage per turn. The also have some of the best enchantments in the game like Amplified Arrows from the Astral Amplification Tier II Tome, which makes the attack hit a second target within 3 hexes for 30 percent of damage. That is insane. Even if the range would be cropped to 1 hex, it would still tremendously powerful. Its basically a 30% damage enchantment on top of the lightning damage buff.

But it seems that neutral armies get raised to higher tier levels as the turns progress. It is really weird to see stacks of tier 3/4/5 units defending a resource node. I think they went a bit overboard there. It means that clearing them early on is always better.
 

Skorpion

Educated
Joined
Jan 31, 2023
Messages
347
I wonder what the plan for dealing with the tome circus is, because they sure as hell should have one. Current meta is shifting strongly and quickly into simply checking which units can accept the most enchantments. Which leads to "hilarious" results, namely t1/2 outperforming t4, or even t5, since you can't buff most of them nearly as much.
Which is somewhat hilarious, given that it wasn't even a couple of pages ago in this same thread that some of you were shaking your heads in disappointment about the claim that low tier units were trash and completely outperformed by the high tier ones, with no way to make them viable.
These dumb fucks are talking about the "meta" of a game they don't own. There is no winning with stupid bro
 

Zboj Lamignat

Arcane
Joined
Feb 15, 2012
Messages
5,552
Which is somewhat hilarious, given that it wasn't even a couple of pages ago in this same thread that some of you were shaking your heads in disappointment about the claim that low tier units were trash and completely outperformed by the high tier ones, with no way to make them viable.
Literally no one, ever, anywhere was complaining about high tier units completely outperforming lower tiers, because that's obviously the way it should work and I'm always happy to help you understand such difficult concepts (4>1). The complaints were always about t4 being too easy to get and spam, but that was already "fixed" some time ago, in a better way.

This is the Codex so this is to be expected. About a half of this thread appears to be people shitting on the game, they contradict themselves a fair few times along the way. Some of the criticism sounds like part of these peeps haven't actually played the game but watched a few videos and jumped in to comment - like the "single map size" criticism which is both incorrect and irrelevant.
DO u 3v3n play, bro?? Then drop a truthbomb when AoW4 rmg seeds cornering you from the start, retarded ai forward settling, completely broken and pointless underground starts and so on are like number 1 or 2 complaints and 100% valid ones.

AoW4 is a good fucking game. There's balance issues (which can be fun for SP but I guess a big problem for MP), but this will steadily improve as patches come. This is a great base to add more content via expansions and it's a joy to play.
Do you want to be a dragon (retardedhawke.jpg)? Cause that's the type of content you gonna get - game getting bigger instead of better. For the record, I'd absolutely love to be proven wrong here. So do it, triumph.

The aforementioned "tome circus" is really completely overblown based on the fact that some people are sperging and are finding optimal strategies. Yes, some options are currently clearly better than others. But this will be easy to tweak for the devs and even now provided that you don't care about the "best choice" there's a lot of potential builds and combos that are quite good and very playable - at least in SP and in MP you can work around the balance issues by banning certain builds.
Optimal strategies are absolutely not the biggest problem. The underlying issue is the stupid implementation caused by their "make everyone different by making everyone the same" approach that carries a number of shitty implications. Like all the ones being mentioned by literally any person looking at the game from a critical angle.

But the tier 5 units in AoW 4 are a bit underwhelming. Not just by numbers but also by design, they are fairly boring. They aren't something that I look forward to getting, picking the proper enchantments which are usually in tier 1-2 tomes is much more important.
But it seems that neutral armies get raised to higher tier levels as the turns progress. It is really weird to see stacks of tier 3/4/5 units defending a resource node. I think they went a bit overboard there. It means that clearing them early on is always better.
AoW4 seems to be doing the same thing HoMM6 did - flatten the differences between tiers and make high tier ones nothing special. It's not only about the enchantment bonanza, but all units seem to have super high hp and the combat is less deadly. Even before the nodes scale, early game quests or wonders will often have t3-4 units and they're surprisingly easy to defeat.

Like I said, the t4 spam complaints must've really traumatized them, ever since PF they're doing their best to kick highest tier units down as much as possible. Whether you like that approach or not (many people seemed to love the fact that in PF kitting out t1-2 with mods and blitzing through the game with them was not only possible, but often optimal), the design ideas they introduce to achieve it are questionable at best.
 
Joined
Jun 6, 2010
Messages
2,279
Location
Milan, Italy
Which is somewhat hilarious, given that it wasn't even a couple of pages ago in this same thread that some of you were shaking your heads in disappointment about the claim that low tier units were trash and completely outperformed by the high tier ones, with no way to make them viable.
Literally no one, ever, anywhere was complaining about high tier units completely outperforming lower tiers, because that's obviously the way it should work
Can I slap your fucking stupid mouth if I find the direct quote from someone who did?
I even commented that it wasn't entirely true and the usual bunch of retards was mad butthurt about it.
 

Zboj Lamignat

Arcane
Joined
Feb 15, 2012
Messages
5,552
No, but if you find someone outraged at the idea of a t4 unit being hands down better than t1 one then you can start discussing games with them. Seems like something that might work out.
 
Joined
Jun 6, 2010
Messages
2,279
Location
Milan, Italy
No, but if you find someone outraged at the idea of a t4 unit being hands down better than t1 one then you can start discussing games with them. Seems like something that might work out.
The tier system is a failed experiment imo. Or at least it is in the way it's implemented. There's just too huge of a power divide between tiers. Planetfall was better in this regard because the higher a unit is, the more "supporty" it became. On top of that, it's very easy to get T3s in AoW4 by casually exploring the map.

Yes, AOW4 seems to be designed with the purpose of letting the player to experience their race's great journey of ascendance in a single sitting, as to leave a positive impression even on casual strategy game players.
Hence the progress is so quick and you see same shit every match - steel skin, growing wings, becoming demons etc.

I had a glimmer of hope that this time the war part will be a little better, but no - highier tier units trump everything else and you can get them relatively quick, and - what's more game breaking - sustain using those high tier units in all your armies.
And there was probably more but I already wasted too much time to answer to a bitter mongoloid with his "witty" comebacks.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,022
Pathfinder: Wrath
I was never outraged that T4s were better than T1s, I said (and have always said) that the power divide between tiers is too huge, which led to T4 spam.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 6, 2010
Messages
2,279
Location
Milan, Italy
I was never outraged that T4s were better than T1s, I said (and have always said) that the power divide between tiers is too huge, which lead to T4 spam.
And I argued that they had an edge but low tier units were still more than reasonably viable at some point.
Then someone else came and made a claim on the extreme opposite, saying T1 and T2 units in certain circumstances outperform the rest.

In the end it seems that Balance was restored and everything is more or less fine.
 

Infinitum

Scholar
Joined
Apr 30, 2016
Messages
700
And finished Grixolis on hard on the second try. Turns out it was pretty easy to counterpick Tulver or whatever his name was so long as you survived the inital stacks (and went with the tested and true sunderer spam). Also got lucky in that I started on a rather big 'island' and could settle 4 cities in short order spreading out from the connector bridges.

Games all right. Some glaring issues like T1-with-boosters spam being economically head and shoulders above other strats, the manlet transformation looking like ass and certain tomes being strictly better than others, but I did up playing into the small hours a good few times which is about as good as it gets for this kind of games.
 

Fedora Master

Arcane
Patron
Edgy
Joined
Jun 28, 2017
Messages
28,109
Someone could be shitting on a plate and there's at least a couple of Dexers that'd go "Durr? Game gud!? Hurr!!! BUT GAME GUD DURR!!!"
 

Absinthe

Arcane
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Messages
4,062
The problems with T4 spam were a) it was too easy to get to them and then spam them, b) you didn't get access to many T4s, so that naturally meant you are going to have doomstacks of 1 type of T4 unit (*cough* horned god *cough*), and c) they were way too powerful compared to anything else. This current issue of seeking units who can accept the most enchantments seems to me to be unintentional and something their playtesters didn't catch. Which isn't surprising because they have the worst playtesters of all time. If they even have playtesters at all tbh.
The other problems were the lack of production overflows (why make a T1 in 1 turn when you can make a T3 in 1 turn or T4 in 2 turns) and the smaller stack sizes (it's easier to get a T4 stack with a stack size of 6, and it's harder to do something interesting with unit compositions in smaller stacks). T4 units being more powerful than the rest wasn't the big issue, really. That's the point of a T4. The problem is that when you got T4 it was hard to justify building much else because you could only crank out 1 unit per turn max anyway.

No, but if you find someone outraged at the idea of a t4 unit being hands down better than t1 one then you can start discussing games with them. Seems like something that might work out.
For what it's worth RG5 Orc Necro Greatswords with Shadowborn Master with a Warlord hero buffing the stack can go toe-to-toe with a lot of T4 between 40% phys resist (RG5 + Warlord stack leader), Strong Will on stack (from Warlord leader, for 80% spirit resist total thanks to Shadowborn Master + Archlich), undead resistances (100% blight resist, 40% frost resist, and 20% fire resist as an undead ghoul from a city with Embalmer's Guild), double lifesteal, charge (from Warlord), 21 phys + 2 blight + 2 shock attack (not counting War Cry, Bloodbath Warlord hero spell (but Relentless Army is probably better), or Dark Gift necro spell), and 67 health at elite (they start at 3 exp ranks and as T1 units level very quickly, so they might get Champion ranks too). You still wouldn't really do it though because the racial T3 Shock Trooper is just a much better Greatsword and high level Warlord heroes aren't something you'd want to waste with a T1 stack normally.

And there's another AoW 3 T1 that can go toe-to-toe with T4s. If you play a Necromancer and settle some Wizard Tower Ruins you can build an Arcane Catalyst in the city that gives all units summoned in the city's domain +1 rank and supercharged (spawning a random lesser elemental on death). What you do is summon a quick stack of Lost Souls who now get Supercharged and watch high-level stacks melt on them because Lost Souls have Undying (ie. the first time they die, they self-resurrect a few turns later) and both times they die they spawn a lesser elemental so in order to win you have to kill 6 lost souls twice + 12 lesser elementals. Seems legit. Unlike the Orc Greatsword trick this one is actually very easy to get going, so long as you can find Wizard Tower Ruins.

Yeah, Necros are some silly shit.
 
Last edited:

ERYFKRAD

Barbarian
Patron
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
28,370
Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
All well and good but does the sovereign fella have to be a caster no two ways about it?
 
Joined
Jun 6, 2010
Messages
2,279
Location
Milan, Italy
All well and good but does the sovereign fella have to be a caster no two ways about it?
I played more with "champions" than "wizard kings" so far. The greatest benefit of the latter is being able to cast two spells in a single turn of combat, which is not "nothing", while the champion gives bonuses for better productivity/expansion.
Both are absolutely viable and of comparable quality in my experience.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom