Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 1&2 for the first time in ages. BGT or not?

[FriendlyMerchant]

Otherwise, you're playing a different game.

And that is bad how exactly?

I'm not saying it's bad. Do you want to play BG1? Or do you want to play BG 2 with a mod that copies BG1 like the EE or tutu? It's just that it's important to play the game how its designed before you mod it into something else. If you've never played it before, you get to see what the game was actually designed to be rather than simply playing some modded copy that adds all sorts of stuff into the game.

 

[mondblut]

Do you want to play BG1? Or do you want to play BG 2 with a mod that copies BG1 like the EE or tutu?

I want to play what entertains me better. BG1 on BG2 engine or Fallout 1 on Fallout 2 engine definitely sound more entertaining to me.

It's just that it's important to play the game how its designed before you mod it into something else. If you've never played it before, you get to see what the game was actually designed to be

Again, you are overestimating the developers' competence. Why would it matter "how its designed" as opposed to "how its more entertaining to me"? None of these games is a fucking Mona Lisa or Ode to Joy. Their "original design" doesn't matter shit. Slash and burn to your heart's content, I say.

rather than simply playing some modded copy that adds all sorts of stuff into the game.

All sorts of stuff = better.

 

[FriendlyMerchant]

Do you want to play BG1? Or do you want to play BG 2 with a mod that copies BG1 like the EE or tutu?

I want to play what entertains me better. BG1 on BG2 engine or Fallout 1 on Fallout 2 engine definitely sound more entertaining to me.

It's just that it's important to play the game how its designed before you mod it into something else. If you've never played it before, you get to see what the game was actually designed to be

Again, you are overestimating the developers' competence. Why would it matter "how its designed" as opposed to "how its more entertaining to me"? None of these games is a fucking Mona Lisa or Ode to Joy. Their "original design" doesn't matter shit. Slash and burn to your heart's content, I say.

rather than simply playing some modded copy that adds all sorts of stuff into the game.

All sorts of stuff = better.

Thank you for failing the IQ test

 

[mondblut]

Do you want to play BG1? Or do you want to play BG 2 with a mod that copies BG1 like the EE or tutu?

I want to play what entertains me better. BG1 on BG2 engine or Fallout 1 on Fallout 2 engine definitely sound more entertaining to me.

It's just that it's important to play the game how its designed before you mod it into something else. If you've never played it before, you get to see what the game was actually designed to be

Again, you are overestimating the developers' competence. Why would it matter "how its designed" as opposed to "how its more entertaining to me"? None of these games is a fucking Mona Lisa or Ode to Joy. Their "original design" doesn't matter shit. Slash and burn to your heart's content, I say.

rather than simply playing some modded copy that adds all sorts of stuff into the game.

All sorts of stuff = better.

Thank you for failing the IQ test

Ok fanboy.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

EE has the best waifu in the series(Neera) but it's my waifu so don't play EE.

 

[Chippy]

As someone who has been playing BG1 since it came out in the 90s, I can say that you appreciate the game more in its vanilla state the more time goes on.

BGT is nice, but I typically generate some head canon for playing BG1 with the original engine. Like characters need to be a high level before they can adopt the weapon styles for example.

The real challenge in this game - and its fantastic design - is in the vanilla engine/version. People are robbing themselves of the experience by adding...stuff.

It's like a virgin having sex for the first time and buying thousands of pounds of sex toys and decking out a sex dungeon to make the first experience all the more thrilling...

>Insert sex doll joke here about modding community companions, or Beamdog<

 

[Poseidon00]

I wonder if OP has decided in the past couple of years whether or not to choose BGT

 

[Ninjerk]

Im really excited, Im about to play BG1 EE for the first time and I didnt think I needed to use mods but I found some interesting ones on Beamdog with some references to mods on Spellhold and Gibberlings

I have downloaded Sword Coast Stratagems, Tweaks Anthology and some enhanced Romance options. But if their are any suggestions about " must have " mods for BG1 I would appreciate the feedback and why you recommend them

Install the original.

In summary, why would you suggest that. I can do that, I just need the correct motivation?

Well, the fact that you're here in the first place suggests (to me anyways): you're an RPG enthusiast or you have something of an antiquarian interest (there's other possibilities related to the moderation policy here, but I think this is a good faith conversation).

BG1 Complete (I believe that's the version that's available on GOG whether you buy EE or not, may have to request it if you bought the EE) is, while not a perfect game by any means, a complete ADnD 2nd (IIRC) game that is an exemplar of the RPGs of its time. I personally am a big fan of consuming most media in the form which it was originally produced, with notable exceptions. Whether you're someone that likes to read interviews or watch documentaries to learn the hows and the whys behind of a lot of decisions, I believe you will come away with a better understanding and appreciation of the finished work as it is--no external mechanical or tonal changes introduced by people with different motivations, resource pressures, etc. (be those modders or "paid modders" like Beamdog) long after the fact.

I make exceptions (for a first playthrough anyway), e.g. installing GMDX for a playthrough of Deus Ex, where I think the modifications do not alter what is already fundamentally sound gameplay (and sometimes the elements around it). In the case of Deus Ex, the combat is not particularly engaging on a first playthrough whereas something like JA2 is (and I would recommend playing that without modifications for some time, even if 1.13 has a really robust set of enhancements). I'm not aware of the enhancements that are made by the mods you chose, but I am highly suspicious of the changes made in the Enhanced Edition beyond graphical updates and even then I wasn't personally bothered playing in a much lower resolution on my most recent play of BG1 (perhaps the most complete run I've done).

Your mileage may vary.

 

[Sykar]

Never play EE. Don't give Beamturd parasites any money.

Who said you had to give them money for it?

Attention or recognition is just as bad.

 

[The Limper]

The vanilla BG1 experience is hands down the way to go on your first play thru. It does a decent job making you work, explore and earn those desperately craved magic items and xp. Once you have the metagame knowledge…… mod away to move away from the annoying things, like 20 max arrow stacks.

 

[Jasede]

I feel like playing BG 1 in the BG 2 engine makes the game much too easy because kits are broken as fuck in low levels.

 

[Average Manatee]

I feel like playing BG 1 in the BG 2 engine makes the game much too easy because kits are broken as fuck in low levels.

Which kits exactly are broken? Lots of them are absolutely weaker at low levels than the base class and those that aren't are not what I would call broken. The only kit I'd say is objectively superior to base BG1 options is Archer, and even that only gets +1 THAC0/Damage at level 3 and caps at +2 at level 6.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

I feel like playing BG 1 in the BG 2 engine makes the game much too easy because kits are broken as fuck in low levels.

Which kits exactly are broken? Lots of them are absolutely weaker at low levels than the base class and those that aren't are not what I would call broken. The only kit I'd say is objectively superior to base BG1 options is Archer, and even that only gets +1 THAC0/Damage at level 3 and caps at +2 at level 6.

Any Paladin kit is strictly better, especially at low level. Even Cavalier which denies the player bows. Fear immunity and remove fear is tremendously good in BG1. Same applies to clerics, bards, fighters, and druids. Shapeshifter werewolf form and Totemic spirit animals are immune to normal weapons, which is huge. The only kits that might not be strictly better in BG1 are:

Assassin, Kensai, Beast Master, and Wildmage. Assassin is starved for skillpoints and doesn't have levels or loot to compensate for crap BAB. Does OK with poison and darts, but its not enough. Kensai doesn't have the levels to build natural AC or benefit from BAB bonuses. Wildmage gets the bonus spellslot and access to all schools, but Nahal's and surges are a death wish. Also, their variable caster level can completely neuter your spells. Beast Master suffers less than in BG2, but you don't get access to their summons until too late. Its just a horrid kit in general.

While I wouldn't say the kits break BG1 without meta-knowledge, they make the game FAR easier. The only exceptions might be Berserker and (to a lesser extent) Barbarians with their Rage ability. Its a win button against the games nastiest foes. Undead Hunter and Inquisitor also comes very close to being OP. Outside of the few cases I listed, they are all better than vanilla class.

 

[Average Manatee]

Well, going through them:

Fighter: Barbarian and Kensai are both pretty awful in terms of AC, and AC is essential in BG1. Wizard Slayer is pretty useless all the time anyway. Berserker is GOOD, but not being able to specialize in ranged weapons is a relevant downside in BG1 where ranged weapons are incredibly dominating for most of the game and arguably one of the best specializations for a fighter. On top of that Berserker is only getting 1/2 rages a day, so unless you really sleep a lot in those outdoor areas it's not commonly a buff in play. It's a good class but not necessarily overpowered. Would rather be a fighter/cleric. Arguably a berserker->cleric dual is a bit overpowered I guess.

Ranger: Archer is great, but doesn't even get bonuses until level 3 and again at level 6. Possibly a little broken. Stalker has awful armor in exchange for its perks, I say it's a net loss overall. Beast Master has awful armor too without even getting any relevant advantages. Would rather be a ranger/cleric.

Paladins: Basically a 100% worse fighter in every way in BG1, so a slightly better version of them is fair. Remove fear is a level 1 cleric spell that lasts an hour, who actually cares. Inquisitor has no real casters worth dispelling without SCS. Undead hunter is great, but +3 to hit and damage vs. undead is fairly comparable to the fighter getting +2/+3 vs everything from high master in their weapon (granted undead hunter gets it at level 1 while fighter has to level a bit). Black guard is OK I guess. All of them are objectively better than the paladin but fairly comparable to a straight fighter IMO (A dwarf fighter is strictly superior to all of them I think since they'll get 19 con and +5 con bonus to all saves, paladins can't be dwarfs). Also inferior to a fighter/cleric.

Clerics kits are... OK I guess. Inferior to being a fighter/cleric.

Druid: Shapeshifter is not immune to normal weapons, just tested. Also tested totemic druid and the spirit summoning ability summons absolutely nothing on my 100% vanilla, updated BG1EE, so lol beamdog bugs. Avenger is OK I guess. Would rather be a fighter/druid. In fact Cleric/Ranger in BG1 non-EE is objectively stronger than fighter/druid since it has all druid and cleric spells, so you're actually being nerfed here while playing the EE (unless you edit the config files to undo this change).

Mage: Wild Mage is basically suicidal. Sorcerer is OK, don't know if I'd call it that overpowered unless you are powerleveling basilisks early in order to get spells that you'd only find in the city.

Thief: All of the kits really suck and are absolutely inferior to fighter/thief, especially at low levels. Bounty Hunter, Assassin and Shadow Dancer literally can't do what they are designed to do because it doesn't unlock until later (Assassin) or they don't have the skill points because they need find traps first and they get skill points so slow (bounter hunter, shadow dancer). And Swashbuckler is a joke class for people who want to be a fighter/thief without knowing fighter/thief exists.

Bard: The kits are definitely all stronger. Jester's song will hit all the time at low levels, Skald's +2/+2 bonus applied to everyone makes the berserker's one person limited time rage look wimpy, Blade gets its abilities way too fast IMO. There's no good multi or dual that really replicates this and these are all unique and useful things. Could see an argument that they are overpowered but I don't think they trivialize the game. Maybe jester does though, I don't know exactly how awful mid to late game enemy saves are.

Monk: lmao hahahaha

Shaman: see monk


TL;DR while some of the kits are improvements most of them still pale in comparison to a multi, so unless you got a very specific comparable dual you're behind and even with a dual I don't think you are significantly stronger (fighter duals suffer because they don't get grandmastery until BG2 which is kind of the point of dualling fighter). I keep mentioning fighter/cleric because it is just that good, especially if you're a dwarf.


Also, it should be noted that BG1EE necessarily nerfs most melee classes compared to BG1 due to the fact that it splits all the proficiencies BG2-style, which means that there are much longer gaps between weapon upgrades than the original depending on what you pick. Fighter/Cleric for example literally only had to put 2 points in spiked weapons and blunt weapons to have full effectiveness with every cleric-available weapon in BG1, in the EE there's way more options.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

Wild Mage is basically suicidal.

Yeah, I never got what they were going for with RNG the class. IIRC, it would evaporate 20,000 gold from you at random in the initial build.

The fact that Beamdog decided to make one of their romanceable companions a Wild Mage (and an elf, as if we didn't have enough romanceable elves) was just icing on the cake.

 

[Average Manatee]

It's insanely powerful in late SoA/ToB when you can use a level 1 spell slot to cast a level 9 spell with automatic improved alacrity (then after casting 3 you use it to cast limited wish and use the wish that will recharge 4 low level spells). Also the wild mage adds their level and chaos shield to their wild mage roll, which eventually makes it pretty safe to get wild surges. It just sucks ass in BG1.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Wildmage is for the gambler. The player that accept the risks of power. Things like the gold loss can be managed. I keep valuable gems until I need gold to buy something. Shoplifting suddenly gains appeal. Other things are less manageable, like turning yourself to stone when you meant to cast haste, or gating in a Nabassu demon at level 8 when you meant to cast Knock.

Good times. The spell level variability can come in handy too. Casting a CL9 fireball at level 5 is a glorious event. Once you get access to Greater Chaos Shield, you can use Nahal's Recjless Dweomer as more than an emergency measure. The mess of wild magic is half of the fun though.

PS: There is a fun mod with really well done wild magic spells that I will upload to this post later. I can't recall the name, but highly recommend it for the wild mage enthusiasts. Its part if my trove of mods.

 

[Chippy]

I wonder if OP has decided in the past couple of years whether or not to choose BGT

Probably spent the past couple of years trying to get the mods installed and complete the game with them.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

Wildmage is for the gambler. The player that accept the risks of power. Things like the gold loss can be managed.

Uh huh. I'd rather not plan my gameplay around my 'lol so random' character class. No one plays it like that anyway, they just reload.

There's not enough advantage to the class to compensate for its severe flaws. They should have nixed the gold loss at the very least.

More creative effects would have been nice too. Randomly teleporting you to another plane, etc. If you're going to have a lol so random class, don't forget the lol part.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Wildmage is for the gambler. The player that accept the risks of power. Things like the gold loss can be managed.

Uh huh. I'd rather not plan my gameplay around my 'lol so random' character class. No one plays it like that anyway, they just reload.

There's not enough advantage to the class to compensate for its severe flaws. They should have nixed the gold loss at the very least.

More creative effects would have been nice too. Randomly teleporting you to another plane, etc. If you're going to have a lol so random class, don't forget the lol part.

By level 15, wild surges are not a problem. Risk? Yes. Problem? No. That if you don't even use contingency/sequencer exploits to stack chaos shields. At that level, variable caster level is also not much of a problem.

You underestimate the power if the extra spell slots with no school restriction. NRD gives the wizard better flexibility than a sorcerer and as many spells per day. All with access to the massive wizard spells known. It can replicate HLA and everything below at the cost of level 1 spells that are mostly baggage by Act 2 SoA. NRD also has ZERO recovery time. It casts as though the wizard has Improved Alacrity HLA active. With items like the Amulet of Power which reduce casting time, this can be used to devastating effect.



All the better, is that you can have Projected Images and Simulacrum use wild magic too. Have a Wizard's Eye follow them around and go nuts. I also appreciate the sense of wonder and unknowable quality it returns to magic. I find the risks acceptable for the raw power it gives too. Not for everyone.

 

[Average Manatee]

The problem if you're playing BG1 is that the risk is greatest (your level and chaos shield spells reduce the chance of things going bad, the former being lower and the latter being something you don't have spell slots for), and the return is lowest (using your level 1 wild mage slots to cast a level 6-9 spell in exchange for a guaranteed surge is awesome, using it to cast a level 2 spell is not).

It's true, around level 15-18 (your first HLA and level 9 spell slot) is the point where wild mages become undisputed gods of the game, able to chain infinite timestops and do whatever other bullshit they want while wearing vecna's robe and amulet of power and having permanent improved alacrity. Problem is that BG1 caps at level 9. It's a class designed for BG2, and it shows because you'd never pick it in BG1.


(technically wild mages could theoretically become this broken at level 1 or 2, since all they need to do is KNOW a spell, so a level 2 wild mage who gets their hands on a time stop scroll, the BG1 ring of wizardry, and one of the spells that lets you regen spell slots COULD chain time stop endlessly and other level 9 spells just the same. You just have the little problem of acquiring all those items in BG1).

And yeah, the gold lost is the least of the problems with wild mage. Just keep all your items in a bag of holding and don't sell them for gold until you need to buy something with gold. Can't lose gold that you don't have. I guess if you play totally vanilla then you might have the problem of your bag of holding getting full, but who doesn't play with bottomless bags nowadays?

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

You underestimate the power if the extra spell slots with no school restriction. NRD gives the wizard better flexibility than a sorcerer and as many spells per day. All with access to the massive wizard spells known. It can replicate HLA and everything below at the cost of level 1 spells that are mostly baggage by Act 2 SoA. NRD also has ZERO recovery time. It casts as though the wizard has Improved Alacrity HLA active. With items like the Amulet of Power which reduce casting time, this can be used to devastating effect.

Interesting. You make it sound pretty decent, even though you ignore the fact that NRD has no recovery time because you're expected to flub a percentage of your casts, even with Chaos Shield. But again, not worth the extra reloading.

BG1&2 are easy games that you can already solo with virtually any class, so playing an annoying class just for power gaming is unnecessary. Sorcerers and mages in BG2 are already unfathomably overpowered compared to other games. (As they should be.)

Problem is that BG1 caps at level 9. It's a class designed for BG2, and it shows because you'd never pick it in BG1.

You just have the little problem of acquiring all those items in BG1

And yeah, the gold lost is the least of the problems with wild mage. Just keep all your items in a bag of holding

Which you don't get until Shadows of Amn's late game.

but who doesn't play with bottomless bags nowadays?

"Mods will fix it." lol. How about just modding out the gold loss?

Frankly, I doubt either of you follow your own advice. I think you're both save scumming constantly.

If you enjoy it, great, but it's clearly a flawed class gameplay-wise that adds nothing for anyone that isn't a munchkin who doesn't mind hitting reload every other battle.

 

[Average Manatee]

At high levels and with your shield up (also possibly Neera's quest item) your chance to not have your spell screwed is very, very high. To start with you have 50-60% chance not to get a wild surge. Then lots of wild surges do nothing (target glows), nothing of consequence (caster loses 6 strength... just pause the game and move items), or help you (spell casts twice, or spell casts and caster gets all their spells back as if they rested). As long as you have abilities like protection from fire and petrification on you then you're fine spamming with a wild mage.

Which you don't get until Shadows of Amn's late game.

You get it in spellhold, that's not exactly far into the game.

It's also not like you can't keep some valuable items on your characters in the meantime, 6 characters is a lot of slots.

Strictly speaking you never really even need money in BG2 because you can have a thief drink 5 potions of thievery and steal everything you want.

 

[Non-Edgy Gamer]

At high levels

RIP BG1 and half of SOA again.

(also possibly Neera's quest item)

Almost as bad as 'mods will fix it', but ok. Assuming you could stand Neera long enough to get it.

To start with you have 50-60% chance not to get a wild surge.

Which works out to reloading only 40% of the time. Yay. Not counting the 5% default chance to miscast if you don't have a shield up.

I've seen guides for BG1 advocate not casting a spell until level 4. It's a clown show of a class, dude.

Then lots of wild surges do nothing (target glows), nothing of consequence (caster loses 6 strength... just pause the game and move items), or help you (spell casts twice, or spell casts and caster gets all their spells back as if they rested). As long as you have abilities like protection from fire and petrification on you then you're fine spamming with a wild mage.

Oh, yeah, just cast a protection from petrification spell every time you're going to cast a spell. Makes sense.

You get it in spellhold, that's not exactly far into the game.

I guess halfway through could be more appropriate, depending on how you play, but it really depends on how many side quests you do before then. I realize some people rush Spellhold for story reasons, but it doesn't make much more sense to spend weeks doing random side quests after the Underdark either.

The point is, you don't have access to it in BG1 or in the first part of BG2 - you know, the part where you're encouraged to gather money? Oops, 80% of it just disappeared. How fun.

Strictly speaking you never really even need money in BG2 because you can have a thief drink 5 potions of thievery and steal everything you want.

We're already to the part where you're advocating cheesing your way around it, I see. I guess you never play lawful characters then. What's next, console commands?

I believe you'd do that, but I'm not sure how you can advocate cheesing the system using a bug no one ever bothered to fix and still expect me to believe that you're actually using any of these convoluted suggestions rather than simply reloading the game.

 

[Average Manatee]

At high levels

RIP BG1 and half of SOA again.

No one said it's a good idea in BG1. At beginning of SoA you just don't cast reckless dweomer. A wild surge is only 5% likely to happen on normal spells and the chance of it going even slightly bad is like 2%.

To start with you have 50-60% chance not to get a wild surge.

Which works out to reloading only 40% of the time. Yay. Not counting the 5% default chance to miscast if you don't have a shield up.

Wild surges are not always bad. In fact on average they are good to irrelevant if you are higher level and protected.

I've seen guides for BG1 advocate not casting a spell until level 4. It's a clown show of a class, dude.

Again, not balanced for BG1. You aren't supposed to play wild mage in BG1.

Oh, yeah, just cast a protection from petrification spell every time you're going to cast a spell. Makes sense. View attachment 26127

It's literally a single level 1 spell that lasts an hour. Like 1/3rd of the NPCs in baldur's gate are mages, you'll have dozens of level 1 slots for someone to cast it.

I guess halfway through could be more appropriate, depending on how you play, but it really depends on how many side quests you do before then. I realize some people rush Spellhold for story reasons, but it doesn't make much more sense to spend weeks doing random side quests after the Underdark either.

The point is, you don't have access to it in BG1 or in the first part of BG2 - you know, the part where you're encouraged to gather money? Oops, 80% of it just disappeared. How fun.

The amount of money you need to go to spellhold is pathetic. 1 or 2 quests does it. The chance of getting the wild surge that removes 80% of your money is 1%. This is literally the biggest non-issue of the wild mage class ever.

I guess pre-spellhold you'll just have to put your excess expensive items in a container literally anywhere in the game world. That's so difficult isn't it? There's a reason people use bag of holding mods, it's not because it's powerful it's because it's 100% just for convenience and not wasting time.

We're already to the part where you're advocating cheesing your way around it, I see. I guess you never play lawful characters then. What's next, console commands?

I believe you'd do that, but I'm not sure how you can advocate cheesing the system using a bug no one ever bothered to fix and still expect me to believe that you're actually using any of these convoluted suggestions rather than simply reloading the game.

What the fuck are you going on about?