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Baldur's Gate review

Morbus

Scholar
Joined
Nov 2, 2006
Messages
403
I did it. Some people are liking it, other people aren't. So I want to know what you think about it.

http://megascore.biz/?p=47

Strong criticism encouraged.
 

Jasede

Arcane
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Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
Sounds about right, I'll give you a more lengthy review review when I am done cleaning the house.

But this needs quotation:

Some Guy said:
The story is definitely cliche but what matters is the story telling and that was at the time close to unique. While reading your review I couldn’t help but wait for you to say “compared to Oblivion” or something similar. Remember that this game is almost 10 years old… Considering the technical limitations at the time and where the competition, I’d say the different good/ bad/ neutral opps were already a breakthrough and the different ways of playing the game as well. In summary, valiant effort but anachronical
 

Morbus

Scholar
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Messages
403
Jasede said:
But this needs quotation:
Some Guy said:
The story is definitely cliche but what matters is the story telling and that was at the time close to unique. While reading your review I couldn’t help but wait for you to say “compared to Oblivion” or something similar. Remember that this game is almost 10 years old… Considering the technical limitations at the time and where the competition, I’d say the different good/ bad/ neutral opps were already a breakthrough and the different ways of playing the game as well. In summary, valiant effort but anachronical
Yeah, that's why I get the feeling most of those who are complaining (both at megascore.biz and at rpgwatch) just don't like the same kind of RPG's I do... </euphemism>
 

MasPingon

Arcane
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Castle Rock
In the end, however, I always get the feeling that Baldur’s Gate would have gone much better with turn based mechanics, at least for more tactical combats. It is way too common to loose a battle because this or that character did something he wasn’t supposed to do, or didn’t something he was. Smaller and easier battles are quick in real time, but would certainly be boring if they were turn based, so the best option would probably be a real time/turn-based switch.

Don't you know about active pause?
 

Morbus

Scholar
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MasPingon said:
Don't you know about active pause?
On character hit, on weapon unusable, on character injured, on character dead, on target gone, on spell cast, on enemy sighted, yeah, that's how I play.
 

MasPingon

Arcane
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I always get the feeling that Baldur’s Gate would have gone much better with turn based mechanics, at least for more tactical combats. It is way too common to loose a battle because this or that character did something he wasn’t supposed to do, or didn’t something he was.

So what do you have in mind here?
 

Morbus

Scholar
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Messages
403
Jasede said:
...how about "On end of round"? Turn-based right there.
Forget it dude. That's phase based.

MasPingon said:
So what do you have in mind here?
Pathfinding, random variances of damage, the dissimulated mechanics implemented in the system. All of that makes the combat feel clunky.
 

Jasede

Arcane
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Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
I am bad at this turn-based/phase-based stuff. What's the difference again and why is phase-based not as good as turn-based?
 

Morbus

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Jasede said:
I am bad at this turn-based/phase-based stuff. What's the difference again and why is phase-based not as good as turn-based?
Why BG's phase based is not as good as turn based, you mean. Because in BG you can (and have to) assign new orders inside on single phase, unlike other kinds of phase based systems. The problem with Baldur's Gate combat is that the player doesn't have full control over his characters.
 

inwoker

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
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Kyiv, Ukraine
Ahhh, the best review of Baldur's Gate that I actually read.
Those commentators flawed in a way that they assume that crpg GENRE somehow evolved in 10 years, that today's standarts for crpgs are somehow higher than 1998s. In fact, we all know, it wasn't or was minimal. It was other aspects of games that evolved: graphics, engines.

Frankly speaking, I don't even know HOW can crpg evolve over, say, fallout. No, actually it can be achieved through invention of true not simulated artificial intelligence.

Those guys, that commented, are like people on bioware forums. There is no point in discussing anything with them, as somebody on codex said about biowarian forum guys.

About actually flaws in your review, don't know I wouldn't comment because it was in 1999 that I played that game, don't remmember many aspects, and I'm not an expert critic.
 

Morbus

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Messages
403
inwoker said:
Ahhh, the best review of Baldur's Gate that I actually read.
Thanks :D

inwoker said:
Those commentators flawed in a way that they assume that crpg GENRE somehow evolved in 10 years, that today's standarts for crpgs are somehow higher than 1998s. In fact, we all know, it wasn't or was minimal. It was other aspects of games that evolved: graphics, engines.
Ehehe, I was going to say that, but then I felt it was a bit over the top :P

inwoker said:
Frankly speaking, I don't even know HOW can crpg evolve over, say, fallout. No, actually it can be achieved through invention of true not simulated artificial intelligence.
Fallout has still a lot of flaws to work upon. The core (most of it anyway) is there, but Fallout has lots of flaws, pretty much like every single RPG out there. There is always room to improve. Always. Now, you can't expect to improve something if you keep reinventing it... :lol (I'm looking at you destructoid, you bunch of cretins!).

:edited for acuteness:
 

Shannow

Waster of Time
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Jasede said:
I am bad at this turn-based/phase-based stuff. What's the difference again and why is phase-based not as good as turn-based?
You issue orders, press unpause and everybody moves at the same time vs. you tell one character what to do, it will do this, then the next character will be able to move.
I'll let you figure out yourself what is turn based and what is phase based ;)

Another problem apart from phase based was that you had to geuss how far the enemy could move in one round and what area of effect your spell would cover. Making spells much more based on luck than in ToEE for example...

Luckily (!sarcasm!) most encounters were easy enough not to require tactics/strategy ;)
 

inwoker

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
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Messages
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Kyiv, Ukraine
Morbus said:
Fallout has still a lot of flaws to work upon. The core (most of it anyway) is there, but Fallout has lots of flaws, pretty much like every single RPG out there. There is always room to improve. Always. Now, you can't expect to improve something if you keep reinventing it...

Of course it's not perfect. In present, I keep my hope for VD and team about AoD. I hope it to be next-gen in normal sense of word.
It chilled me when I read some of what devs wrote for nma, about what aspect would they improve by today's technologies.
That thing actually, strengthened my opinion about creation to live detached life from author. It's hard for me to explain why I think so in English, but I'll try. When you read a book you make some conclusions on what was author's thoughts about subject. But those conclusions are based on YOUR experience, education, ...wits. But author's wits differ from yours, therefore you come to dif. conclusions. For example, for russian people to see why I have such opinion please read book by Boris Strugatskiy about his books. This is just the best example that I know.

For what fuck I actually wrote that paragraph? A, nevermind.
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
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Messages
24,924
"Those guys, that commented, are like people on bioware forums. There is no point in discussing anything with them, as somebody on codex said about biowarian forum guys."

Look in the mirror, Busto.


As for the review itself, I disagree with a large part of it; but at least it is well written.
 

Morbus

Scholar
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Nov 2, 2006
Messages
403
Volourn said:
As for the review itself, I disagree with a large part of it; but at least it is well written.
Well, that's definitely reassuring. Thanks for the compliment :D
 

inwoker

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
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Messages
15,685
Location
Kyiv, Ukraine
Volourn said:
"
.......

Maybe, maybe there is no point in dis. seriously with me. But that not makes biowarinities worth discussing with. The statements are not mutually exclusive.
And, Volourn, please give me links to bioware forums with constructive AND intelligent crpg discussions, about c&c, plot etc.... And not one, but a good ammount.

And with what part of review you disagree?
 

Lumpy

Arcane
Joined
Sep 11, 2005
Messages
8,525
What the fuck, Morbus? 3? Fucking 3?
Anything more than 1.5 is blasphemy.
 

cardtrick

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Maine
Look . . . I don't want to be too much of an asshole, because you seem like a nice guy. But you asked for criticism, and you are running a site open to the public, so what the hell?

First, I mostly agreed with much of the review, although I don't really agree that Baldur's Gate was a sandbox. (Then again, the only RPG that I really, really consider to be a sandbox is Darklands; but even games like Oblivion or Daggerfall are closer than Baldur's Gate.) At the very least, you should have stated your definition of sandbox, because it clearly differed from mine. (I would call Baldur's Gate non-linear rather than sandbox, meaning that it has a plot, but the plot doesn't have a set order. To me, "sandbox" means that you may have an overall goal, or you may set a goal for yourself, but one way or another gameplay is about trying to achieve that goal; there is not much of an external plot foisted upon you.) Still, like I said, I mostly thought the content of the review was good.

One minor quibble: it might have been worth mentioning the modding scene. I think that's one advantage indie reviewers dealing with older games have compared to mainstream publications putting out reviews at the time of game release. It would have been nice to tell readers that they can now play Baldur's Gate at higher resolution in the BGII engine using Tutu, or that modders have fully fleshed out all of the NPCs to be even more talkative than the ones in BGII, for example. I think that would be nice for someone who played BG back when it was released and is thinking about perhaps replaying it.

Now, to the part where I'm going to be really critical. Your grammar/writing is pretty poor, and I think that you should see about getting an editor or something. I'm obviously not going to go through everything, but let me just look at your first sentence:

Morbus's Review said:
Often acknowledged as one of the best Role-Playing Games ever (even if arguably worse than its sequel), Baldur’s Gate did broke some boundaries, but lacks some things other RPG’s have, released both earlier and later.

Did is present tense, broke is past tense; you want either "did break" or just "broke." My vote is for "did break," which has a more skeptical tone.

Role-Playing shouldn't be hyphenated, and Role Playing Games shouldn't be capitalized.

Your last clause, "released both earlier and later," is really awkward, primarily because it comes after the verb "have" rather than directly after the noun it is describing.

Also, "RPG's" is just wrong - the apostrophe indicates either a possessive noun or a contraction, and this is neither. You just want RPGs.

I would revise this sentence to read:

Despite being surpassed by its sequel in some ways, Baldur's Gate is widely regarded as one of the best role playing games ever made. However, although its release did break some boundaries, it lacks certain elements common to RPGs made both before and since.

Even this isn't quite grammatically correct, but it's an improvement, and I think it flows better.
 

Risine

Liturgist
Joined
Dec 26, 2005
Messages
114
I can't believe what I read!

1/ Reviewing a game does not consist in listing a few "flaws" - including minor flaws - and evaluating it from that, not more than in listing a few "strong points" ( Wonderful 3D, great 3D and wow 3D, great AI that is cool on paper, facial animation wow ).
Assuming that, anyone could also list Fallout flaws for instance : bugs, 3D tilied iso, pitiful team management - non-existent ? -, bad inventory and awful interface management, bugs,bugs,bugs and so on, and then note it 3 out of 5.

2/ You take as example the path-finding problem, ok, that's right, it's annoying from time to time but rarely, and it does not spoil the gameplay at all, most of the time ( 95% ) it does its job correctly, unlike for instance recurrent and awful cameras managments we have in many 3D games - including CRPG games -, and that are rarely mentioned as a bad experience. ( a bad camera managment can condemn the best game ).

3/ Considering Baldur as an average game ( 3/5 it's average ) with the influence it had in CRPGs ( just think about it, no Baldur's gate would have probably meant no Planescape Torment ), this is like reviewing Wolfenstein3D or Doom today, games which also revolutionized games ( much, much more ) and explain they were just other fps as we know them so much.
If you want to review an old game, you must place yourself in the context of the time, and understand it. ( and I'm not talking about the visuals ).

4/ Considering Baldur as an Action/RPG or a dungeon crawling game, this is getting very far. isn't it? I mean, with your definition, we can state that Ultima VII and Ultima underworld I&II, which have as much fighting sequences are Action/RPG games fully-fledged. We can also state that the only CRPG game which can be considered as non action/RPG is ... the famous Planescape Torment. All others are simply Diablo action/RPG clones?

5/ The fact that 10 years after, Baldur is still mentionned again and again, each time the word RPG is used for other reviews, the fact that so many players continue to play, replay and talk about this game, preferring it to nowadays RPGs, should have make you try to understand and analyse the reasons, with the advantage of 10 years of stand-back.

6/ Considering the critics about the fighting system, there's not a good and a bad system, both Fallout and Baldur systems are great, both are fun to play ( what a great brainwave the magic spacebar pause system, Baldur wouldn"t have been Baldur without it. )
 

cardtrick

Arbiter
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Apr 26, 2007
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Maine
I take back my own criticisms. Risine sounds like a dumbass, and I don't want to be associated with that. :)
 

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