Baldur's Gate review

[Volourn]

"And, Volourn, please give me links to bioware forums with constructive AND intelligent crpg discussions, about c&c, plot etc.... And not one, but a good ammount."

Nah. Don't need to. Anyone with any decent intelligence would know like any internet forum the BIo forums are a mixture of constructive wellw ritten posts, and garbage. The Codex is no different. Your whitewashing of an entire forum is just plain retarded.

P.S. before you whine about how bias I am because I'm a 'BIowhore fan', I have a newsflash for you - I tend to post here more than i do there, and if you just take my posts from a year after NWN1 was released - I have eaisly posted more here.


"And with what part of review you disagree?"

You mean you don't know my opinion on the BG series yet? Do a search on various boards. That'll clue ya in. As one example, the absolutely disgusting exaggeration of the 'horribleness' of the pathfinding accoridng to the reveiwer is hilarious. I didn't have much problems with the IE pathfinding except in a few rare cases. Exaggeration in a post is a-ok; but a review is bogus and misleading.

 

[Morbus]

No problem cardtrick. Criticism is always welcome, it's always nice to read. It helps build consistency. I'm retracting a bit from commenting though... but I sure am reading everything.

But, y'know, some comments do make laugh Like the other guy and the Oblivion thing?

 

[flabbyjack]

Last week I saw someone wearing a BGII: SoA t-shirt. I was like 'yeah! Wooooo!! You rock!'

 

[mytgroo]

Maybe if you reviewed Icewind Dale, and Icewind Dale II also they would put Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale as buyable downloads. Yay!!!

 

[Severian Silk]

I did it. Some people are liking it, other people aren't. So I want to know what you think about it.

http://megascore.biz/?p=47

Strong criticism encouraged.

Do you have to be a member? I can't read the whole article. The links all jsut take me back to the index page.

 

[Morbus]

Works fine for me. And no, no subscription required: there is none.

 

[Pegultagol]

I also found some problems with my browser somehow defaulting to the index page from all links on the site.

cached ver does seem to work.

 

[Rhett Butler]

Your grammar/writing is pretty poor, and I think that you should see about getting an editor or something.

I second this suggestion. I checked out megascore when I heard the AoD F.A.Q. would be posted there, and I was instantly put off reading your articles because of your poor English.

 

[inwoker]

Nah. Don't need to. Anyone with any decent intelligence would know like any internet forum the BIo forums are a mixture of constructive wellw ritten posts, and garbage. The Codex is no different. Your whitewashing of an entire forum is just plain retarded.

Okey, not entire forum. But 75-90%(for more accurate result more research needed). I would correct my statement if you insist:
Those guys, that commented, are like most people on bioware forums. There is no point in discussing anything with them, as somebody on codex said about biowarian forum guys.
And, Volourn, the meaning of my initial phraze was the same. Have you never heard something like: all people are brainwashed. That means not all but most in that context.

P.S. before you whine about how bias I am because I'm a 'BIowhore fan'

Volourn, it's your imagination, that I would whine.

I have a newsflash for you - I tend to post here more than i do there, and if you just take my posts from a year after NWN1 was released - I have eaisly posted more here.

I don't care where you post. It's not quantity of posts that is important, it is content of them.

You mean you don't know my opinion on the BG series yet?

I asked about review, actually.

As one example, the absolutely disgusting exaggeration of the 'horribleness' of the pathfinding accoridng to the reveiwer is hilarious.

Actually even with improved pathfinding in bg2 I felt the same as author about pathfinding.

I didn't have much problems with the IE pathfinding except in a few rare cases.

Can you name me % when you clicked on other side of complex map and all six or 5 or 4 companions got to the point without going to some shit happens.

but a review is bogus and misleading.

Me needs to read some reviews of bioware games, that you consider good or awesome if they exist. If you link, I thank you.

 

[Morbus]

I also found some problems with my browser somehow defaulting to the index page from all links on the site.

cached ver does seem to work.

Yeah, I'm finding the same problem too. Will try to correct it as soon as possible.

:EDIT:
Good, now everything is messed up. Very nice. Will correct it asap. Don't know how, but will.

 

[Lumpy]

3/ Considering Baldur as an average game ( 3/5 it's average ) with the influence it had in CRPGs ( just think about it, no Baldur's gate would have probably meant no Planescape Torment )

Obviously, since Planescape's greatness depended entirely on the engine. Without Baldur's Gate, do you think PST would have had RTwP combat or, uh...

this is like reviewing Wolfenstein3D or Doom today, games which also revolutionized games ( much, much more ) and explain they were just other fps as we know them so much.
If you want to review an old game, you must place yourself in the context of the time, and understand it. ( and I'm not talking about the visuals ).

Ok, contexting:
It's 1998. Fallout has been released one year ago. Planescape Torment in in pre-production, MCA has also sketched out the plot outline. Baldur's Gate comes out.
It still sucks.
Are you telling us to compare the game to the others of its age, when that's what we pretty much do with any RPG, even those released today?

There's one thing we can agree on. Baldur's Gate was ahead of its time. It sucked as much as RPGs managed to suck only 10 years later.

 

[Morbus]

Ok, everything is working fine. Those of you who had troubles accessing our page, feel free to try now.

 

[aries202]

Baldur's Gate was the first computer rpg game I ever played - on the advice from co-worker who also were into computergames. I liked it And I still like it to this day - more so than BG2 which is made so I feel being railroaded from stort to end. In BG 2 you just fight & fight & fight your way through hordes of enemies and you vannquish with grossly over-exaggerating powers such as death spells and something similar. No much fun or challenge in that.

IN BG1, you slowly discover who you are during the story, you don't even know who you really until maybe 4/5 into the story. The attacks on your life make no sense at all. You're supposed to be finding out why there's an iron shortage in the Forgotten Realms. Now there's a political plot for you :!: As a result of your finding this out, you just accidentally happen to stumble upon evidence that explains the attacks on you or your heritage. The story is perhaps not the most inspirering or best story in the world, but it makes sense in the game's world, it has verimimilitude, not many games these days have this...

As for the combat it is round-bases. Each character is on his or her individual round in the game. I often have wonderes why Minsc didnøt fire his crossbow at the same time as Imoen ffired her bow. Then I remember they are on individual timed rounds. (or is it turns?). I prefer this realtime with pause action combat over both turnbased, which is way too slow for me, and realtime combat which is way too fast for me.

And yes, the pathfinding was and is horrible, but TOTSC did some attempt to rectify this. And there were some patches as well.

I don't agree that Baldur's Gate is a sandbox type of game, yes, you can go back to areas you've visisted before, but the main story must be concluded, the game must end - at some time.

I rather like the isometric view in the game (or the bird's view point of view) but as I have played other games, I would like to be able to pan in and out and zoom ind and out and turn the screen around. But it's a minor quibble compared to the game's focus on the story, the strong political plot in the game, and the fact that Bioware had ladies of the night in the game as well as the main character visiiting a brothel while searchinf for info...

/aries202

 

[Volourn]

"Me needs to read some reviews of bioware games, that you consider good or awesome if they exist. If you link, I thank you."

Here's a shocker! SP's review of NWN found here on the Codex is a good review. I don't agree with everything he says, and I actually like NWN; but most of his criticisms are justified, and mostly reasonable.

My various reviews on BIO's game also found (as topics here) are reasonable decent (though with typos heh). Even the Codexers who hate BIO games seem to be satisified with them even if they don't 100% agree with my opinions.


"Okey, not entire forum. But 75-90%(for more accurate result more research needed). I would correct my statement if you insist:"

iI simply disagree. The majority of BIo forum posts are reasonable, and well done. The thing is most people only, as usual, remember the silly/garbage posts. And, hey, at least on the BIo forums there is no Tubgirl nonsense, or Furry Freaks mass spamming. At least not for long. That's a bonus.


"Have you never heard something like: all people are brainwashed. That means not all but most in that context."

Yeah, and I'm guilty of doing that too. it's called poor grammar, and a misnomer. Why write 'all' when you don't mean 'all'. It's silly.


"I asked about review, actually."

Yeah, and I would think my opinion on BG would effect how I'd view a review just as yours does. It's called inherent bias for a reason. My biggest beef with BG1 is that the joinable npcs are generally lacking in depth unlike future BIO games (not surprising since it's their first RPG which means they should improve), and the role-playing wasn't exactly the best. I thought that while the story wasn't original for the most part; it was well written. And, I love IE/NWN style combat. (I also love turn based combat so go figure).


"Can you name me % when you clicked on other side of complex map and all six or 5 or 4 companions got to the point without going to some shit happens."

It's been years since I played the game so there is no way I'll be able to post an accurate percentage. I do know that while at times the pathfinding did odd things; i never understood some people's absolute hatred/frustration wityh the IE pathfindinbg as I never seemed to have that high degree of problems with it. Then again, unlike other people, i wasn't dumb enough to click the other side of the map in places such as Firewine. L0L

 

[JoKa]

so the pathfinding was fine when you only walk short distances without any obstacles...

 

[Volourn]

Learn to read. Walking long distances was fine except in rare instances like Firewine which had just as much to do with respawning kobolds than anything else. Gah.

 

[Jasede]

The path-finding was bad at long distances at the default setting. But if you increase the nodes (and why wouldn't you?) I never had any trouble.

Man, all this BG talk makes me want to replay 1, 2 and the addons with the same character again.

 

[Section8]

I can't believe what I read!

You and me both, sunshine.

1/ Reviewing a game does not consist in listing a few "flaws" - including minor flaws - and evaluating it from that, not more than in listing a few "strong points" ( Wonderful 3D, great 3D and wow 3D, great AI that is cool on paper, facial animation wow ).
Assuming that, anyone could also list Fallout flaws for instance : bugs, 3D tilied iso, pitiful team management - non-existent ? -, bad inventory and awful interface management, bugs,bugs,bugs and so on, and then note it 3 out of 5.

A list of flaws is probably a more informative review than you're likely to get form any "professional" source. If you've followed the game's development at all then rest assured you'll have heard all about the good stuff.

2/ You take as example the path-finding problem, ok, that's right, it's annoying from time to time but rarely, and it does not spoil the gameplay at all, most of the time ( 95% ) it does its job correctly, unlike for instance recurrent and awful cameras managments we have in many 3D games - including CRPG games -, and that are rarely mentioned as a bad experience. ( a bad camera managment can condemn the best game ).

Actually, in a game where 95% of the gameplay consists of "tactical" combat, pathfinding can be a pretty big Achilles' Heel. Combine that with the fact that the game environments are designed without any regard to gameplay and you've got some serious problems. In my experiences with Baldur's Gate, I spent more time fighting the interface than the enemy.

3/ Considering Baldur as an average game ( 3/5 it's average ) with the influence it had in CRPGs ( just think about it, no Baldur's gate would have probably meant no Planescape Torment ), this is like reviewing Wolfenstein3D or Doom today, games which also revolutionized games ( much, much more ) and explain they were just other fps as we know them so much.
If you want to review an old game, you must place yourself in the context of the time, and understand it. ( and I'm not talking about the visuals ).

Considering Baldur's Gate as an average game that "revolutionised" the genre to be the cesspool of mediocrity that it now stands as isn't far off the mark. What positive advances to Baldur's Gate bring to the fore? What did it inspire? And remember where we are - five discs worth of pretty graphics and campy voice over doesn't count for shit.

You're right about Planescape, but it succeeding in being a quality bit of interactive fiction in spite of its godawful roots, not because of it. I would have been perfectly content to see the same creative minds working from a more solid base - they could have done something truly phenomenal, instead of the rough diamond and commercial failure we got.

4/ Considering Baldur as an Action/RPG or a dungeon crawling game, this is getting very far. isn't it? I mean, with your definition, we can state that Ultima VII and Ultima underworld I&II, which have as much fighting sequences are Action/RPG games fully-fledged.

Why wouldn't you consider the Ultima Underworlds as Action/RPG hybrids? And then take that one step further and realise that they are successful in both hybrid elements? ie, they're fun action games, and solid RPGs. Ultima VII is getting closer to Baldur's Gate territory, where the real-time group combat is an abortion. At least Ultima VII has some RPG chops to back up that shortcoming, and isn't so focused on combat/dungeon crawling.

We can also state that the only CRPG game which can be considered as non action/RPG is ... the famous Planescape Torment. All others are simply Diablo action/RPG clones?

Huh?

5/ The fact that 10 years after, Baldur is still mentionned again and again, each time the word RPG is used for other reviews, the fact that so many players continue to play, replay and talk about this game, preferring it to nowadays RPGs, should have make you try to understand and analyse the reasons, with the advantage of 10 years of stand-back.

Baldur's Gate was a piece of shit then, it's even more of a piece of shit now. If I hadn't played glorious examples of the genre, such as the Ultima series, the Fallouts or even the dungeon crawling goodness of the Wizardry games, then I'd rate Baldur's Gate higher - because I'd have a lesser pool of experience to draw my conclusion from. I might even wax nostalgic about it, like the thousands of other kiddies without the depth of experience to realise that Baldur's Gate was the Oblivion of its day - vacant, shallow, trite, camp, lacking in any worthwhile gameplay - but with lots of shiny stuff and no need for an attention span.

6/ Considering the critics about the fighting system, there's not a good and a bad system, both Fallout and Baldur systems are great, both are fun to play ( what a great brainwave the magic spacebar pause system, Baldur wouldn"t have been Baldur without it. )

Aren't bandaid fixes just divine?

 

[inwoker]

Here's a shocker! SP's review of NWN found here on the Codex is a good review. I don't agree with everything he says, and I actually like NWN; but most of his criticisms are justified, and mostly reasonable.

shoker for whom? Agree, good review. I liked good hack&slash rpg NWN too, game lacks only one thing - challenge. Maybe, it will be shock for you that I liked it.

Even the Codexers who hate BIO games seem to be satisified with them even if they don't 100% agree with my opinions.

I don't hate and am satisfied also.

I simply disagree. The majority of BIo forum posts are reasonable, and well done.

Maybe, but I searched today for about 20 min. and most I found "How to make dual-class"-like topics. But I may be biased and if it isn't so I take back my words and ask for forgiveness of all sane members of bioware forum.

And, hey, at least on the BIo forums there is no Tubgirl nonsense, or Furry Freaks mass spamming. At least not for long. That's a bonus.

But whats bad in that? :D

Yeah, and I'm guilty of doing that too. it's called poor grammar, and a misnomer. Why write 'all' when you don't mean 'all'. It's silly.

So you arguing me not for my opinion, but for poor grammar?

Yeah, and I would think my opinion on BG would effect how I'd view a review just as yours does. It's called inherent bias for a reason. My biggest beef with BG1 is that the joinable npcs are generally lacking in depth unlike future BIO games (not surprising since it's their first RPG which means they should improve), and the role-playing wasn't exactly the best. I thought that while the story wasn't original for the most part; it was well written. And, I love IE/NWN style combat. (I also love turn based combat so go figure).

I didn't agree with some parts of review too, but from reviews that I saw it's the best. With npc lacking and roleplaying parts i agree. For combat, it's very flamewar topic.

 

[made]

Did is present tense

It is?

 

[cardtrick]

Did is present tense

It is?

Haha, good call. I obviously did not mean that.

Which doesn't change the fact that his grammar was wrong and that the rest of the sentence I wrote there was correct. What I really should have said was that the construction he was trying for (an emphatic simple past tense, or something . . . someone who knows the actual terminology for English grammar could correct this phrase) requires a present tense verb in conjunction with the word "did." E.g., "did break" rather than "did broke." Alternatively, he could just have said "broke," which would have been simple past (this would probably have been better for a grammatical purist, but either way would have gotten his point across without sounding wrong to the reader).

 

[made]

Quite correct. The term you're looking for is "past emphatic tense" - so called because it's used for emphasis.

Anyway, somehow I missed the entire second page of this thread...