Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate: Siege of Dragonspear Pre-Release Thread

[Delterius]

You might be under the impression that I'm badmouthing PoE to say good things about BG, this is not the case.

I'm not really addressing the illusion of attrition in itself (which can be very much real in either game if the player is willing), rather, the illusion that trash combat is significant in anyway.

In Pillars of Eternity, for every encounter in the game minus about 7, you'll be spamming per-encounters powers left and right. That's not much more significant than just auto-attacking enemies to death with bows in the Infinity Engine. Meaning that most of the trash in PoE is just filler content, something that the devs are wising up to in the coming patch.

Much like BG, you can use per-rest resources in these fights to end them sooner. It's encouraging the opposite behavior of what BG wanted to encourage.

You really don't need much help to 'end battles sooner', even with PotD's bloated enemy stats. What you just said is so radically irrelevant to the experience of either game that you just reminded me you haven't even played PoE yet...

 

[ArchAngel]

You might be under the impression that I'm badmouthing PoE to say good things about BG, this is not the case.

I'm not really addressing the illusion of attrition in itself (which can be very much real in either game if the player is willing), rather, the illusion that trash combat is significant in anyway.

In Pillars of Eternity, for every encounter in the game minus about 7, you'll be spamming per-encounters powers left and right. That's not much more significant than just auto-attacking enemies to death with bows in the Infinity Engine. Meaning that most of the trash in PoE is just filler content, something that the devs are wising up to in the coming patch.

Much like BG, you can use per-rest resources in these fights to end them sooner. It's encouraging the opposite behavior of what BG wanted to encourage.

No he is right. Once I got my lvl 1 and lvl 2 encounter spells I done 90% of combat just spending all of them first before using anything else. It just ended up as auto attack in BG except much more irritating because I needed to do more clicking and more pausing.

 

[Roguey]

You really don't need much help to 'end battles sooner', even with PotD's bloated enemy stats. What you just said is so radically irrelevant to the experience of either game that you just reminded me you haven't even played PoE yet...

I've been seeing goons talk about it, quite a few of them say they keep needing to rest because one or two particular members are low on health yet still have a bunch of per-rest stuff left over. Other goons said they needed to spread the damage out around more and use more per rest resources so they get the maximum value per adventuring day.

 

[Neanderthal]

Actually, was there any speculation when MCA took small work for Beamdog of a possible MCA endorsed PSTEE?

MCA answered that imsen when Shaneplays asked im a bunch o our questions, think this is post an thread: Questions for Chris Avellone radio interview - now updated with additional answers from MCA!

Shanes radio show goes into more depth on answers from man imsen.

 

[FeelTheRads]

the game was supposed to have no trash combat,

Josh never said that. He said filler combat was bad, but trash and filler aren't the same.

Like I said, apologist bullshit.

Trash combat worst thing ever for RPGs!
PoE is released...
Trash combat is totally necessary and important!!!!

And it's totally not the same as filler!

If no trash combat was a goal, it would have been designed Divinity: Original Sin style with the expectation that you enter each fight with full health and all spells/abilities available.

Yeah, because Obsidian is known for making reasonable decisions.

Much like BG, you can use per-rest resources in these fights to end them sooner. It's encouraging the opposite behavior of what BG wanted to encourage.

It's doing the same thing, but encouraging opposite things...

 

[Delterius]

You really don't need much help to 'end battles sooner', even with PotD's bloated enemy stats. What you just said is so radically irrelevant to the experience of either game that you just reminded me you haven't even played PoE yet...

I've been seeing goons talk about it, quite a few of them say they keep needing to rest because one or two particular members are low on health yet still have a bunch of per-rest stuff left over. Other goons said they needed to spread the damage out around more and use more per rest resources so they get the maximum value per adventuring day.

I dearly hope your favored sample of people (people who bother talking about how they need to use the carefully balanced amount of camping supplies an unknown yet existance amount of times) were at least playing on PotD.

But of course I love how you go from 'the game only incentives you to use per rest abilities pointlessly' to 'some people out there haven't figured out the game very well and they post on SA =DD they prove my mediocre trash combat is much more than mediocre filler content'.

 

[throwaway]

Actually, was there any speculation when MCA took small work for Beamdog of a possible MCA endorsed PSTEE?

MCA answered that imsen when Shaneplays asked im a bunch o our questions, think this is post an thread: Questions for Chris Avellone radio interview - now updated with additional answers from MCA!

Shanes radio show goes into more depth on answers from man imsen.

Get on it Oster!

 

[hell bovine]

You might be under the impression that I'm badmouthing PoE to say good things about BG, this is not the case.

I'm not really addressing the illusion of attrition in itself (which can be very much real in either game if the player is willing), rather, the illusion that trash combat is significant in anyway.

In Pillars of Eternity, for every encounter in the game minus about 7, you'll be spamming per-encounters powers left and right. That's not much more significant than just auto-attacking enemies to death with bows in the Infinity Engine. Meaning that most of the trash in PoE is just filler content, something that the devs are wising up to in the coming patch.

Much like BG, you can use per-rest resources in these fights to end them sooner. It's encouraging the opposite behavior of what BG wanted to encourage.

You can fireball kobolds left and right in BG, thanks to wands. Ends fights even sooner and doesn't require resting.

It doesn't even matter if you label enemies as trash mobs or not, because combat in PoE feels just bland. If modders can take BG2's wacky combat system and deliver something like SCS, than PoE, with a professional developer team behind it, is a fail. And instead of playing up to the game strengths, like interesting NPCs, they filled it with boring encounters instead.

 

[Anthedon]

I'm sure plenty of people on the Codex will find justifications for why their favorite flavor of trash combat is better than other flavors of trash combat.

Personally I'm more interested in seeing how well SoD will sell. Unfortunately, Steamspy doesn't track DLCs so we won't have numbers. It may remain a mystery for some time.

We should be able to make a rough guesstimate if there are some easy and unavoidable achievements.

 

[Infinitron]

Playthrough on YouTube:

 

[AwesomeButton]

To those who track developers' statements - do we have it on record anywhere that TWM or base PoE use any kind of scripting for enemies' behavior and in which encounters?

 

[Roguey]

You can fireball kobolds left and right in BG, thanks to wands. Ends fights even sooner and doesn't require resting.

You're using up a resource, wand charges.

If modders can take BG2's wacky combat system and deliver something like SCS, than PoE, with a professional developer team behind it, is a fail.

No non-garage dev professional developer would ever tune a RPG with SCS as a base level of difficulty.

A lot of people like to talk up Gaider's Ascension mod so here's a fun fact: the Tougher versions of those boss fights were how they were originally tuned, but Bioware's playesting determined them to be Too Difficult for the average player, so they nerfed them hard.

 

[thesheeep]

If modders can take BG2's wacky combat system and deliver something like SCS, than PoE, with a professional developer team behind it, is a fail. And instead of playing up to the game strengths, like interesting NPCs, they filled it with boring encounters instead.

A lot of people like to talk up Gaider's Ascension mod so here's a fun fact: the Tougher versions of those boss fights were how they were originally tuned, but Bioware's playesting determined them to be Too Difficult for the average player, so they nerfed them hard.

Unfortunately true.
You always have to remember that no dev ever would willingly increase difficulty of a game so much that only the best players (and yes, you count as best if you can manage to beat SCS, deal with it) could play it. It just wouldn't sell.

It's not that they couldn't, it's just that they won't.
Or... well... looking at how bland and boring trash mobs were in PoE even compared to BG, which at least provided some challange more often, it is quite possible that they indeed couldn't.

 

[aVENGER]

You always have to remember that no dev ever would willingly increase difficulty of a game so much that only the best players (and yes, you count as best if you can manage to beat SCS, deal with it) could play it. It just wouldn't sell.

I don't think this is the case for the higher difficulty settings in SoD. We take those much more seriously than the original games did.

Our battles are fairly manageable on Normal (which is the default setting), however, if you deliberately choose to increase the difficulty, you pretty much get what you asked for. For example, as our lead designer recently found out, SoD's final battle can present quite a challenge on Core Rules and above. And no, I'm not nerfing that.

 

[thesheeep]

I was talking about default difficulty/settings, though.
It's good that you put in the extra effort, one can only hope it pays off. From a financial standpoint, I mean, as it sure is quite a bit of work to adjust more than just numerical values on difficulty change.

 

[hell bovine]

You can fireball kobolds left and right in BG, thanks to wands. Ends fights even sooner and doesn't require resting.

You're using up a resource, wand charges.

Which are easily recharged at shops.

If modders can take BG2's wacky combat system and deliver something like SCS, than PoE, with a professional developer team behind it, is a fail.

No non-garage dev professional developer would ever tune a RPG with SCS as a base level of difficulty.

A lot of people like to talk up Gaider's Ascension mod so here's a fun fact: the Tougher versions of those boss fights were how they were originally tuned, but Bioware's playesting determined them to be Too Difficult for the average player, so they nerfed them hard.

Ascension was a group effort, incorporating the original tougher battles mod by Gaider as well as introducing some new rp options and changing the final battle. The original tougher battles by Gaider you can still find here:
http://www.baldurdash.org/ToB/TOBtweaksandcheats.html
and only Demogorgon is mentioned as "toned down" by Bioware. I think the rest was just Gaider's own ideas and work.

EDIT: I wonder if you even played SCS. There is no "base level of difficulty" with that mod, because you can choose which options to install, making the game only a bit tougher or very difficult, with plenty of room in-between. Speaks volumes about those "non-garage professional" developers, doesn't it?

 

[hell bovine]

If modders can take BG2's wacky combat system and deliver something like SCS, than PoE, with a professional developer team behind it, is a fail. And instead of playing up to the game strengths, like interesting NPCs, they filled it with boring encounters instead.

A lot of people like to talk up Gaider's Ascension mod so here's a fun fact: the Tougher versions of those boss fights were how they were originally tuned, but Bioware's playesting determined them to be Too Difficult for the average player, so they nerfed them hard.

Unfortunately true.
You always have to remember that no dev ever would willingly increase difficulty of a game so much that only the best players (and yes, you count as best if you can manage to beat SCS, deal with it) could play it. It just wouldn't sell.

It's not that they couldn't, it's just that they won't.
Or... well... looking at how bland and boring trash mobs were in PoE even compared to BG, which at least provided some challange more often, it is quite possible that they indeed couldn't.

But you don't have to be the "best of the best" to beat SCS. The difficulty is dependent on what elements you install (I guess people don't read the readmes anymore), which in BG basically boils down to whether you install improved mages AI and prebuffing. Plenty of people played without them. You can go just with the better general AI, it won't differ that much from the original game, except the enemies will be less stupid.

That's my point: that developers prefer the easy "turn the monsters into heavy-hitting hp sponges" approach instead, because it is far less work than customizing AI scripts. Even though you can accommodate all groups of players that way, just let them switch the difficulty-enhancing AI option on or off. Even better if that was doable during gameplay; that way once you got familiar with the combat system, you could start increasing the difficulty.

You always have to remember that no dev ever would willingly increase difficulty of a game so much that only the best players (and yes, you count as best if you can manage to beat SCS, deal with it) could play it. It just wouldn't sell.

I don't think this is the case for the higher difficulty settings in SoD. We take those much more seriously than the original games did.

Our battles are fairly manageable on Normal (which is the default setting), however, if you deliberately choose to increase the difficulty, you pretty much get what you asked for. For example, as our lead designer recently found out, SoD's final battle can present quite a challenge on Core Rules and above. And no, I'm not nerfing that.

What is the difference between the difficulty settings? Is it just enemy numbers and stats, or does their behavior change too?

 

[aVENGER]

What is the difference between the difficulty settings? Is it just enemy numbers and stats, or does their behavior change too?

See here.

There's a bit more than that, but that's the crux of it.

 

[ArchAngel]

But you don't have to be the "best of the best" to beat SCS. The difficulty is dependent on what elements you install (I guess people don't read the readmes anymore), which in BG basically boils down to whether you install improved mages AI and prebuffing. Plenty of people played without them. You can go just with the better general AI, it won't differ that much from the original game, except the enemies will be less stupid.

The whole point of SCS is to get better spellcaster AI and prebuffing (because your party prebuffs too and so do enemy casters in BG2 even without SCS).

 

[ArchAngel]

aVENGER So can you tell me two things:
1. Any new spells for Druids (especially low level ones)?
2. Is UI for two weapon fighting and switching between a bow and sword and board finally being fixed?

 

[aVENGER]

1. Any new spells for Druids (especially low level ones)?

There are some new spells in SoD, but not the kind that low level druids can use. We are aware of the issue though, and we may address it at some point.

2. Is UI for two weapon fighting and switching between a bow and sword and board finally being fixed?

Yes, you can switch between a two handed weapon and a shield + sword combo with a single click now. I think a little bit of this was shown during the stream when Phil equipped a spear (two handed) on a character that was previously dual wielding.

 

[Somberlain]

Yes, you can switch between a two handed weapon and a shield + sword combo with a single click now. I think a little bit of this was shown during the stream when Phil equipped a spear (two handed) on a character that was previously dual wielding.

 

[ArchAngel]

1. Any new spells for Druids (especially low level ones)?

There are some new spells in SoD, but not the kind that low level druids can use. We are aware of the issue though, and we may address it at some point.

2. Is UI for two weapon fighting and switching between a bow and sword and board finally being fixed?

Yes, you can switch between a two handed weapon and a shield + sword combo with a single click now. I think a little bit of this was shown during the stream when Phil equipped a spear (two handed) on a character that was previously dual wielding.

1. Sad panda here. I tried to fix this myself by using Icewind dale mod for Bg1EE but some of those added spells don't work that well and that mod is long time abandoned (at least new bard songs work)
2. That is awesome news

Any improvements for pathfinding? Bg1EE 1.3 still has serious pathfinding issues during and outside of combat with characters getting stuck on each other and environment.

 

[Roguey]

Which are easily recharged at shops.

In which case the resource being consumed is money.

I wonder if you even played SCS. There is no "base level of difficulty" with that mod, because you can choose which options to install, making the game only a bit tougher or very difficult, with plenty of room in-between. Speaks volumes about those "non-garage professional" developers, doesn't it?

If we inserted option switches for every game element a subset of players wanted to toggle, it would become Option Switches: The Game. Looking at the load order discussions of the "average" F:NV PC mod user should indicate that's a battle that, practically speaking, can't be won.

How would you think it would affect the ruleset and gameplay of a cRPG if almost every feature was toggleable and/or adjustable from options menu?

It would make balancing and bugfixing even more difficult than it usually is.

Developers, unlike modders, actually have a finite amount of time they can work on a game until it needs to be shipped.

 

[hell bovine]

Which are easily recharged at shops.

In which case the resource being consumed is money.

Which is not a problem in BG's economy.

Developers, unlike modders, actually have a finite amount of time they can work on a game until it needs to be shipped.

Developers also get paid for their work. I bought PoE, played it once and haven't bothered with expansions, precisely because there was too much boring combat in it. That's how you lose customers.

What is the difference between the difficulty settings? Is it just enemy numbers and stats, or does their behavior change too?

See here.

There's a bit more than that, but that's the crux of it.

That sounds like what I'm looking for in games. I'll give it a try when it comes out. (Do you need just BGEE for this? If so, will you sell it as a bundle?)