Editorial Bethesda developer explains why TB is obsolete

[mister lamat]

neither was the bullying or bullshit sense of ideological superiority on a totally subjective matter.

c'est la vie

 

[Shagnak]

The dumbfuck label just means he doesn't defer to the hive on every issue.

I disagree with the "hive" on plenty of things. My taste in games is generally suspect. My definition of "rpg" is old fashioned and certainly not in line with, I'm guessing, VD's definition.
I think Daggerfall is crap, prefer Wizardry 8 over Fallout, and genuinely like Wizards and Warriors. I think that Oblivion's big failing is that in the long run it is incredibly bland, and yes it is a big failure, but I don't mind saying that I didn't find it so bad that I couldn't eke some fun out of it.

In general, I don't defer to the hive and never have, yet I was never given a dumbfuck label. What am I doing wrong?

(Of course, my status is a little different now. But I'm sure I've amassed enough idiotic arguments in my history that I should have been bestowed with the honour, given that it is apparently that easy...)

 

[mister lamat]

hehe... i ran a 'death pool' on an indie game here once. so much calamity over that. different times though, plurality was encouraged a lot more or people were just far more open to it.

subhine and i had this exact same discussion five or six months ago, which ended amicably. i guess as long as you steer clear of what vd considers a 'true roleplaying experience'(tm) since he's been given his thimbleful of power, you're fine.

sad day when the mods here are on par with those at the bethesda forums.

 

[Claw]

In general, I don't defer to the hive and never have, yet I was never given a dumbfuck label. What am I doing wrong?

You need to tell us we just don't get it. Also, repeat the same argument for a chain bonus.
You need to refrain from explaining your points. Make vague references to outside sources and tell people they have to educate themselves instead.

If you can't aquire the coveted title with these hints, you are beyond help.

 

[Mr. Van_Buren]

The dumbfuck label just means he doesn't defer to the hive on every issue.

I disagree with the "hive" on plenty of things. My taste in games is generally suspect. My definition of "rpg" is old fashioned and certainly not in line with, I'm guessing, VD's definition.
I think Daggerfall is crap, prefer Wizardry 8 over Fallout, and genuinely like Wizards and Warriors. I think that Oblivion's big failing is that in the long run it is incredibly bland, and yes it is a big failure, but I don't mind saying that I didn't find it so bad that I couldn't eke some fun out of it.

In general, I don't defer to the hive and never have, yet I was never given a dumbfuck label. What am I doing wrong?

You haven't threatened the hive mind's security in any real way.

Since anything Bethesda or an employee thereof puts out into public is just fodder for "it sucks" 99.9% of the time around here, when somebody agrees with the "devil that's destroying rpgs" even to a modest degree, it's an opinion and position that must be crushed.

The truth is, if the "RPG authorities" here at RPGCODEX really wanted to save turnbased roleplaying they'd band together, form a development studio, and put THEIR balls on the line.

You want more turnbased games in the market to buck the recent trend towards realtime? Hey, fine, go make 'em. Nobody's stopping you.

I'm just dying to see how long they keep "the true faith" When they've got a million dollar loan on the line, a deadline, and a need to make that money back and more.

It's easy to take somebody to task over their artistic preferences isn't it? Especially when it's not your life on the line or your choices to make.

"but it's just evil and wrong to make RPGs for the lowest common denominator" It's not equally so to adjust one's work in favor of the highest common denominator. That denominator being "1." You're the one you should adjust your work for. Please yourself, and you'll always take out your toughest critic. If anybody else comes along for the ride, the more the merrier.

If it was me, and I had to put food on the table and put my kids through college based on my art, then I'm sorry, but I'm not adjusting my work to please the die-hard minority.

When the Star Trek future comes along and people don't need money any longer, You'll see an explosion of art for art's sake. But until that future comes along, people gotta eat.

I don't mind trends in gaming, because nothing lasts forever and what comes around goes around. Turnbased isn't going anywhere any time soon, and it's day will come once again, that day just might not be today and that possiblity just doesn't bother me at all.

If you love something, let it go. If it comes back to you, it was meant to be.

Venom spewing is optional, but the only real affect to expect from it is just that you'll feel better. Anything else is wishfull thinking.

But just keep in mind that the majority of the venom is just opinion from your point of view, not fact. Given that, conflicting opinions are just as valid until one side or the other can actually prove their position is the correct one.

So far, the position is, "RT Fallout 3 just isn't fallout and turnbased combat resolution isn't obsolete. period." When really what people should be saying is "RT Fallout 3 just isn't fallout and turnbased combat resolution isn't obsolete to me."

The truths we cling to depend very greatly on our points of view. As long as people understand that their point of view isn't plain undisputable fact "just because," there shouldn't be a problem, but everybody is entitled to their opinion.

Anyways, I think this thing has pretty much run it's course.

Anybody got any parting points they'd like to share?

 

[mister lamat]

the rest of the wee sycophants cling to the apron strings of a game called Age of Decadence. kinda the sacred cow around here they bring up as 'their project'. it's adorable.

they will now link to said game, like it was the great lord thunderin' jesus comin' back himself.

 

[Kingston]

The truth is, if the "RPG authorities" here at RPGCODEX really wanted to save turnbased roleplaying they'd band together, form a development studio, and put THEIR balls on the line.

You want more turnbased games in the market to buck the recent trend towards realtime? Hey, fine, go make 'em. Nobody's stopping you.

You do know VD is working on AoD.

 

[mister lamat]

oh baby! look at that!

so predictable.

 

[merry andrew]

Anybody got any parting points they'd like to share?

Way to back out of the argument.

:honourblade:

Oh and

You haven't threatened the hive mind's security in any real way.

R00fles!

 

[Mr. Van_Buren]

The truth is, if the "RPG authorities" here at RPGCODEX really wanted to save turnbased roleplaying they'd band together, form a development studio, and put THEIR balls on the line.

You want more turnbased games in the market to buck the recent trend towards realtime? Hey, fine, go make 'em. Nobody's stopping you.

You do know VD is working on AoD.

Then he's doing his part to buck the trend. If the market for it can support the staff and future project development then he should make another one.

If he manages to avoid any pressures to adjust his work, and can keep the ball rolling then I don't care if he continues making them for all time.

Several titles started off by feeding a small market, they just usually didn't end there too.

We'll see how things go as the years roll on.

 

[MountainWest]

So far, the position is, "RT Fallout 3 just isn't fallout and turnbased combat resolution isn't obsolete. period." When really what people should be saying is "RT Fallout 3 just isn't fallout and turnbased combat resolution isn't obsolete to me."

Jesus fucking Christ. You shouldn't have said that TB is obsolete. You should have said TB is obsolete to you. That's my problem with you. The rest I don't give a fuck about.

Let me quote you for the third time:

I've never backed off from this position. TB in many ways has been rendered obsolete by automation. It's not nessessary to take turns to resolve combat in an RPG setting any longer.

There's a lot of people who enjoy TB, thus it can't be obsolete, now can it?

 

[Kingston]

oh baby! look at that!

so predictable.

Actually I didn't go all "teh saviour of rpgees". It could well turn out crappy and bugged.

 

[Mr. Van_Buren]

Anybody got any parting points they'd like to share?

Way to back out of the argument.

:honourblade:

Oh and

You haven't threatened the hive mind's security in any real way.

R00fles!

Am I really supposed to just sit here and keep saying the same things over and over again, continually illustrating a position that by now should be pretty clear?

Jeezus, if you ran presidential debates we'd never get to an election.

All things must come to an end eventually, man.

 

[merry andrew]

Mr. Van_Buren is going to say he was just stating his opinion.

 

[mister lamat]

alot of people enjoy the v-twin engine... like i mentioned earlier to you, it's been obsolete for almost sixty years.

just because something is static and obsolete doesn't mean the fun has been taken out of it. same reason they still rock the v-twin, there ain't no experience like hearing a harley fire up.

 

[One Wolf]

Any parting points?

Aren't there a few from earlier in the thread left unaddressed?

 

[merry andrew]

Am I really supposed to just sit here and keep saying the same things over and over again, continually illustrating a position that by now should be pretty clear?

No, you're not.

When I'm participating in a discussion, I tend to not say the same things over and over again, especially if no one is understanding what I'm saying. If I want them to understand, I have to look for new ways to express myself.

 

[Mr. Van_Buren]

So far, the position is, "RT Fallout 3 just isn't fallout and turnbased combat resolution isn't obsolete. period." When really what people should be saying is "RT Fallout 3 just isn't fallout and turnbased combat resolution isn't obsolete to me."

Jesus fucking Christ. You shouldn't have said that TB is obsolete. You should have said TB is obsolete to you. That's my problem with you. The rest I don't give a fuck about.

Let me quote you for the third time:

I've never backed off from this position. TB in many ways has been rendered obsolete by automation. It's not nessessary to take turns to resolve combat in an RPG setting any longer.

There's a lot of people who enjoy TB, thus it can't be obsolete, now can it?

*sighs* yet you leave out all the times I've said that it's my opinion and that other people are welcome to their opinions.

my origin post however reads some like this ...

One could successfully argue that all current games are just, in essence, chess given the above tools and budget. If the inventors of chess had all of the above tools and resources, I doubt they would have made chess. They probably would have come up with something like, "civilization," instead. After all, force on force competition is what chess was designed to model.

I love turn-based for the amount of micro-managed strategy it allows. I also hate the amount of time it takes to micro-manage said strategy. Turn based is great for "thinking man's" games, games that require the player to agonize over every possible action and consequence in order to proceed successfully to victory over one's adversary.

I don't think RPGs have to fit this model. I don't think fallout has to fit this model. Given the nature of the setting, the frequency of conflict expected, and the time all that would absorb, I'd prefer that it wasn't turnbased.

Now civilization, or most war sims almost demand turn-based. I don't think the nature of fallout or other RPGs nessessarily demand turnbased.

And, to the dev in question, the reason pnp rpgs are turnbased is because they grew out of the table top war strategy games of the time ... which were turnbased. DnD and games like it began their lives as derivatives of those games.

Those games in turn were born from chess, through many twist and turns. I'm pretty sure that there were egyptian strategy games the predate chess, but I think people get the point.

I think it's clear that I'm expressing opinion. I think it's also clear that any posts that follow are either just illustrations of why it's my opinion or a restating of my basic position.

 

[MountainWest]

alot of people enjoy the v-twin engine... like i mentioned earlier to you, it's been obsolete for almost sixty years.

just because something is static and obsolete doesn't mean the fun has been taken out of it. same reason they still rock the v-twin, there ain't no experience like hearing a harley fire up.

And my example wasn't harley-engine VS some other better engine. It was bike VS car. Most people drive cars but that doesn't make bikes obsolete. Why? Because they're not two versions of the same thing - even though they are both means of transportation. TB and RT are both ways to resolve battle, but they're not two versions of the same thing.

 

[merry andrew]

alot of people enjoy the v-twin engine... like i mentioned earlier to you, it's been obsolete for almost sixty years.

just because something is static and obsolete doesn't mean the fun has been taken out of it. same reason they still rock the v-twin, there ain't no experience like hearing a harley fire up.

Isn't an engine just about efficiency? I don't know anything about engines, or what makes them obsolete.

Are you implying that a combat system in an RPG is just about efficiency, not artistry?

 

[One Wolf]

And what about the stats/skills that are negated by RT? Do you believe them to be unnecessary? Do you see some way of representing them in RT?

Specificly which stats or skills are negated? All of the skills in Fallout can be used in realtime. Everything from smallguns on down the list.

The only stat I plainly see being negated is initiative. And even that can be compensated for. Hell if they added a pause to RT, you just put in an autopause when a mob goes hostile to you.

This would give you plenty of time to comprehend to the danger you're in, prepare yourself mentally for combat, and react accordingly.

If you wanted to model it deeper, make the pause equal to your initiative statistic in seconds. Now there's a reason to have initiative in RT, and measurable degrees of it.

That dynamic isn't required by me however, and I'd probably just turn it off if it was an option.

One problem I see with RT combat are statistics like Iniative/Sequence. If my character is very quick, how, in RT, will I be able to get attacks in first? Will my opponent be forced to wait in RT until I attack?

If he is, will I be forced to remain still, so as not to manipulate the layout of the battlefield to my advantage before attacking? If I am, how is that not already moving towards TB anyway?

And even if I have a higher sequence, what if I don't target him well enough with my mouse, and miss even though I have the stats to score a hit? If he is moving quickly or erratically, thus making it harder for me to aim, then doesn't that negate some of the benefits I should possess from upgrading stats/skills relevant to accuracy?

If I have a character with maxed agility, what will that mean in terms of combat? Will it merely make me move and shoot faster? If it does, what if my character moves too quickly for me to aim well with the mouse? Would this turn in to more of a detriment past a certain point?

 

[mister lamat]

you stated that harley hadn't been made obsolete by volvo... they were actually made obsolete by triumph. just pokin' fun.

the only way to honestly evolve turnbased is to break the mold and adopt ideas from other systems, like we-go or phase based. nothing wrong with that, i'm all for new ideas and concepts. once you break the mold, the mold is broken.

edit:

Are you implying that a combat system in an RPG is just about efficiency, not artistry?

not in the least. the choice of the v-twin for an engine is for lack of a better term, artistic.

 

[Vault Dweller]

i guess as long as you steer clear of what vd considers a 'true roleplaying experience'(tm) since he's been given his thimbleful of power, you're fine.

sad day when the mods here are on par with those at the bethesda forums.

Bullshit. You tried your best to piss people off since your first day. Do you have a tag? No. I once had an epic battle with Role-Player who dared to insult what I hold as the most Holy - a diplomatic path in RPGs. It was a very heated discussion, yet RP can argue, present and defend his points skillfully. I didn't give him any tags. Instead I invited him to join the staff, and was very glad when he agreed.

I know that you prefer to stick with your version of how things are done here: i.e. vd dumbfucks anyone who disagrees with his narrow vision, but that's simply not true.

 

[Mr. Van_Buren]

One wolf, one of the first things I did was tap on latency. That's just one thing RT can't completely negate. It can be compensated for but by it's nature it's always going to play some part.

Also, just being quicker shouldn't mean that you should automaticly get to hit first. There are lots of PnP rpgs that randomize initiatve. Sometimes the quickest guy doesn't go first.

But again, no matter how much the game compensates for latency it's always going to be some kind of factor.

 

[merry andrew]

What is this bullshit about RT being the evolved version of TB? It's like trying to argue that Christians are evolved Buddhists. It's funny how no one is saying that TB is an evolved version of RT... probably because the ones arguing for TB actually understand the nature of RT.