BioWare's love for trash mobs

[biggestboss]

I've always liked BG2 Emoen, personally. One of my favorite character portraits in a video game.

 

[octavius]

I prefered chirpy-Imoen to Emoen myself.

 

[Silva]

We can also probably agree no one plays their games for gameplay reasons (spare for Baldur’s Gate)

Congratulations, you just made the game longer but ensured that some players will quit the game out of tedium, and it's unlikely anyone will ever re-play the game because of how tedious it is to go through!

This. I've tried finishing BG2 a number of times. You know where I gave up 99% of the time? Right at the starting dungeon, exactly due to the pointless combat encounters.

 

[biggestboss]

My only issue with BG1 Imoen is that she looks too prim and ladylike to be a thief whereas Emoen looks like she'll suck a dick for some copper.

 

[laclongquan]

My only issue with BG1 Imoen is that she looks too prim and ladylike to be a thief whereas Emoen looks like she'll suck a dick for some copper.

BG1 Imoen is a waitress so prim/proper is one choice. The other would be slutty barmaid which is out for obvious reason.
BG2 Imoen is fresh off a torture session by Irenicus (prologue) or off long term torture by Irenicus and gang (spellhold). So emo is cant be helped.

 

[DraQ]

Yes, I like hordes. Big tough hordes of yuan-ti, trolls and giants.

Fighting hordes with the expectation of survival is usually indicative of shit mechanics design.

 

[Lilura]

Fuck off, DraQ.

 

[Shadenuat]

Considering many mobs in IE games die to a click or hasted party can chunk through whole level in a time of microsecond and said ice trolls die to 1-2 fireballs I don't see an issue.

And fighting horde of skeletons is fun.

 

[Lilura]

Assuming non-gimped party composition, collective ApR is around 22 by the end of IWD. Coupled with buffing, debuffing, immobilization, direct damage, summoning and divide and conquer spells, yes, it's pretty fun.

I could play through 10 IWD clones. Unfortunately, we only got 1.

 

[DraQ]

Considering many mobs in IE games die to a click or hasted party can chunk through whole level in a time of microsecond and said ice trolls die to 1-2 fireballs I don't see an issue.

See my post above.

 

[Shadenuat]

In context of D&D your post is meaningless.

 

[Cat Dude]

Not only bioware but it is also a staple for western style rpg encounter design.

 

[Cat Dude]

At least in jrpgs they put different colors on same type of enemies.

 

[DraQ]

In context of D&D your post is meaningless.

In the context of cRPGs D&D is piss poor choice.

 

[Shadenuat]

yeah yeah

 

[DalekFlay]

As for the other ones, the difference is M&M6 (and 7 and 8) have fast resolution combat, moreover the combat is actually fun, it's a fantasy party based TB doom where you shoot things with arrows and spells and eventually hack them into pieces with your sword, by the time you clean a map (exterior) in M&M 6 you did two tedious trash mobs fights in Boringness Gate.

Which is more fun depends on taste, but arguing BG has more of a trash mob problem than a Might and Magic game might be the dumbest shit I've read on this site lately.

 

[DraQ]

Which is more fun depends on taste, but arguing BG has more of a trash mob problem than a Might and Magic game might be the dumbest shit I've read on this site lately.

Amount of trash mobs doesn't necessarily correspond to how much of a problem they are.
For example Wiz8 has huge amount of filler combat and quite a bit of a trash mob problem too, but the impact is lessened due to how combat-centric the game is and combat being actually fun.
Also, it's easier to avoid filler combat in Wiz 8 by running away from enemies before the combat begins.

 

[DalekFlay]

Amount of trash mobs doesn't necessarily correspond to how much of a problem they are.
For example Wiz8 has huge amount of filler combat and quite a bit of a trash mob problem too, but the impact is lessened due to how combat-centric the game is and combat being actually fun.
Also, it's easier to avoid filler combat in Wiz 8 by running away from enemies before the combat begins.

I quoted the Might and Magic part of his post for a reason. Wizardry I can't comment on, finally playing that series is a life goal, but M&M is endless trash combat that never stops. I'd take Dragon Age: Origin's trash mobs mixed with well designed fights and story sections over that any day.

 

[DraQ]

Amount of trash mobs doesn't necessarily correspond to how much of a problem they are.
For example Wiz8 has huge amount of filler combat and quite a bit of a trash mob problem too, but the impact is lessened due to how combat-centric the game is and combat being actually fun.
Also, it's easier to avoid filler combat in Wiz 8 by running away from enemies before the combat begins.

I quoted the Might and Magic part of his post for a reason. Wizardry I can't comment on, finally playing that series is a life goal, but M&M is endless trash combat that never stops. I'd take Dragon Age: Origin's trash mobs mixed with well designed fights and story sections over that any day.

In Wiz8 you usually end up running away from "oh gods, another trash fight"s at some point, but the game remains fun overall, and it is very combat centric.
I have never really got into M&Ms.

 

[CrunchyHemorrhoids]

I'm sure that having the Diablos as the best-selling games labeled as an rpg for over a decade played a part. The rise of mmorpgs also didn't help.

People who enjoy grinding should be put to work in factories.

Not only bioware but it is also a staple for western style rpg encounter design.

As much of a staple for anime games labeled as rpgs.

 

[Lilura]

In the context of cRPGs D&D is piss poor choice.

Fuck off, DraQ.

 

[Lilura]

BG invented the mage duel

Any prestigious codexer care to comment on that ?
Off the top of my head, i can already give half a dozen of examples of mages duels made way before boringness gate was even conceived.

Note that I'm talking about proper spellcasting duels involving mages, clerics, druids and bards. And monsters like ogre mages and greater doppelgangers.

BG has many examples: Tarnesh, Silke, Nimbul, Mulahey, Bassilus, Tranzig, Venkt, Amarande, Kysus, Rezin, Natasha, Osmadi, Droth, Davaeorn, Mutamin, Ramazith, Degrodel, Entillus, Naaman, Cythandria, Angelo, Shaldrissa, Semaj, Krystin.

Spellcasting duels are a mainstay of the plot-critical path but can be found elsewhere as well. They employ illusions, teleporting, invisibility, protection spells, direct damage, immobilization, divide and conquer etc.

There are at least 20 more in the Tales of the Sword Coast expansion (Durlag's Tower, Ice Island, Werewolf Island).

Also, BG invented rival party faceoffs; that is, pitting the party against other adventuring parties or clans of assassins.

 

[ItsChon]

Lilura is so spot on when it comes to BG/IWD series, it's fucking great.

My first ever post on this forum

Just make another Infinity Engine based CRPG, where the only thing that needs to be changed is the setting and story. Keep the core mechanics of those games the same. I don't need any improvements made to the old BG games, or PS:T, short of revamping some of the old graphics and animations as done in the Enhanced Editions. Bring back those gorgeous hand drawn maps of old, and don't worry about the voice acting so much. Sure you wouldn't make as much money, but you also wouldn't spend nearly as much producing these games, and you'd be able to access an entirely new market of gamers.

Pathfinder: Kingmaker gave us this in an inferior way, and look how much the Codex loved it. Just change the combat to be ToEE style, and focus on making good combat encounters like were present in IWD. As long as the story is semi-engaging, and we have good characters and a solid setting, the game will be incline that's better than 99% of what's put out today.

 

[Lilura]

Yep, imagine Greyhawk, Dark Sun and DragonLance IE games with IWD combat encounter design, artwork and OST.

I would prefer ToEE engine, though.

Current gen devs are just trying to reinvent the wheel year after year, on engines that run like my Aunt May after she's had too much sherry to drink.

As a rule of thumb, their rulesets, settings, UIs and artwork SUCK.

 

[Daidre]

BG has many examples: Tarnesh, Silke, Nimbul, Mulahey, Bassilus, Tranzig, Venkt, Amarande, Kysus, Rezin, Natasha, Osmadi, Droth, Davaeorn, Mutamin, Ramazith, Degrodel, Entillus, Naaman, Cythandria, Angelo, Shaldrissa, Semaj, Krystin.

Spellcasting duels are a mainstay of the plot-critical path but can be found elsewhere as well. They employ illusions, teleporting, invisibility, protection spells, direct damage, immobilization, divide and conquer etc.

Are we playing the same BG 1? There are no duels, all BG 1 spellcasters die to x2-x3 wand of fire or volley of acid/fire arrows in the first round.