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Review Bloodlines praised at ConsoleGold

Sol Invictus

Erudite
Joined
Oct 19, 2002
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Linearity is not an issue with Bloodlines. It's almost completely non-linear in terms of quests, choices and how you go about accomplishing those things.

For example, I found a ton of choices to be made when accessing the Medical Center down the street.

After entering the Medical Center, I would encounter a nurse who would stop me from going in the back. I could:

1) Persuade her to let you in the back, claiming I had to deliver something to a friend who works there.

2) Be really rude to her by calling her a bitch, but that doesn't get me in the back.

3) Since my Hacking skill was 3 or more (I did this with 2 different characters to verify), I can claim to have come to fix the computers on the 2nd floor. Further persuasion was necessary, unhighlighted by any of the "Moron Indicator" texts, so I had to use my own brains to figure out how to persuade her. Upon successfully persuading her, she allowed me in the back AND gave me a key to enter the 2nd floor.
4) As a Ventrue, I can mind control her into letting me into the back, but this does not gain me access to the keycard, because my character doesn't know about it.
5) Alternatively, I can also come in through the back entrance, sneaking past everyone.

Once inside,

1) There are vents that allow me to sneak around if I steal one of the keycards from the Security Office, if I don't have a high lockpicking skill to access those doors.

2) I can talk to the guard, just as the nurse instructed me to, and he will open all the doors for me, including the Controlled Substances room, which I have to use my Persuasion skill to get him to open, after which I have to do some furher convincing because he won't just open it for me just because I have a high persuasion skill. Having a high Persuasion, Intimidate or Seduction skill only allows you additional options - but you'll still have to make choices in the dialogue to proceed further. How cool is that? In addition to those skills, having regular skills, like Hacking, Finance or Investigation allows you even more dialogue skills which you can use together with those abilities in order to get what you want. If I didn't have a Hacking skill I wouldn't have been able to access the 2nd floor.

3) I can kill the guard, and lockpick all the doors to get what I want.

4) If I manage to access the computer room through the ventilation, or by getting the guard to open the door for me, or by lockpicking the door, I can additionally hack through the computer terminal and have it open a vault for me.

5) Sneak around unseen, lockpicking the doors and doing everything quietly, and cast a spell like Trance on the guard to get him to ignore me.

6) Nosferatu have high stealth and invisibility which would have allowed them to elude the guard fairly easily.

Damn, this game is awesome.
 

Sol Invictus

Erudite
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I forgot to mention. If you play some of the different Clans you get different dialogue. A non-Ventrue will not be able to get Mind Control abilities (works like Force Persuasion), for example. Chances are, I could have probably Intimidated the nurse into getting inside.
 

Sol Invictus

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Lord_Santa said:
*fucking idiocy*
Why don't you go fuck yourself? All that shit you spewed were blatant lies. Can't you tolerate the fact that there could in fact be an RPG that kicks the shit out of Gothic, KOTOR and every other RPG released in the past two years in every conceivable way?
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
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This is why you can'y listen to Exitium. He's extreme one wya or the other. Either agame really sucks or is really good. there is no between, and there is no mercy. He's a flip flopper of the worst kind.
 

Sol Invictus

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FLIP FLOPPER

Why does everyone use that word these days? Stop watching CNN for political commentary.

I am just totally awed by Bloodlines. Can you really blame me? There hasn't been a good RPG out in years.
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
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Yes, I can blame you. And, no, I won't stop watching CNN.
 

Sol Invictus

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Holy shit. This game outdoes Thief in every single one of its Thief-y aspects. Play a Nosferatu if you're a fan of the Thief series of games, where walking outside in public got you noticed by people and had cops chasing after you anyhow.

How sweet is that?
 

chaedwards

Liturgist
Joined
Jun 10, 2004
Messages
352
Location
London
I haven't got a pc that's even within touching distance of the specs of Vampire, but Lord_Santa's point piqued my interest, although not as he meant it.

One thing about Gothic was that the world felt alive, with people reacting to your presence and actions in a realistic manner for a pc game - they'd get upset if you drew a sword or walked into their house uninvited. In comparison, Morrowind felt completely dead, with the characters little more than pretty looking graphics that got in my way when I was running around Vivek - they really didn't react to very much I did.

Lord_Santa seems to be claiming the same thing happens in Bloodlines. Does anyone else who's played it agree with him that it takes away from the gaming experience?
 

Diogo Ribeiro

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Exitium said:
Holy shit. This game outdoes Thief in every single one of its Thief-y aspects.

Can you put out light sources? If so, are they, or some them, entirely destructible (more in tune with DX)? Do enemies on patrol react to dead bodies? Can you use shadows to your own advantage regardless of whatever character you're playing? Line of sight and sound? Do enemies realize that their buddies who were supposed to make routine rounds have been missing for 20+ hours and haven't shown up yet?
 

Lord_Santa

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Joined
Nov 17, 2004
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In your basement stealing all your precious oxygen
Saint:

Morrowind (as mentioned) is a bad example, but mainly due to the fact that bethesda’s NPC’s are all ”dead” (total lack of personality)
But in the game you could (surprise, surprise) INTERACT with almost EVERY OBJECT
I see the source engine and I can move a chair or two, thus I think ”Hey Max Payne 2 physics on boxes, etc.”, but no. You can only interact with so many objects (which are very few) and all items you need will have a neat flashing light above them (or however you’d describe it), thus instantly leading you towards what you can and cannot pick-up.

As to the freedom of choices; Gothic had as much freedom as any good RPG, although perhaps lacking a few options as in solving quests in different ways, but hey, Gothic was released 2001 by an otherwise unknown company (still quite unknonwn) who tried to bring back OldSkool CRPG to the computers, by being INSPIRED by older CRPG’s (Ultima VII, anyone?)

”Or because Activision approached them saying, "Hey, we got this license for Vampire, and we also got the rights to make Source Engine games..." ”

Yeah, kindda like Bethesda ”Hey we’ve got the license for Fallout and we also got the rights to make crappy games”

”As opposed to Gothic where there are no stats or skills that affect dialogue? The only thing that impacts the dialogue in the game is which faction you join, but that's merely cosmetic and has no affect on the game beyond that. ”

You want total freedom of speech? Try Ultima V: Warriors of Destiny or any textbased adventure.

”Gothic may have NPC scheduling, but let's get real here. Gothic is las linear as it gets and the speech options are extremely limited. In fact, there's no much in the way of NPC stuff beyond once you pick a faction. ”

Well, then can you tell me why Vampire has NO NPC scheduling whatsoever??


Exitium

”Why don't you go fuck yourself?”

Haven’t your mama taught you not to insult people?

”All that shit you spewed were blatant lies.”

LIES, I TELL YOU! LIES ALL OF THEM!!!

Get real…

”Can't you tolerate the fact that there could in fact be an RPG that kicks the shit out of Gothic, KOTOR and every other RPG released in the past two years in every conceivable way?”

Haven’t played KOTOR yet, as for Gothic it was released three years ago…


Role-player:

Can you put out light sources? If so, are they, or some them, entirely destructible (more in tune with DX)? Do enemies on patrol react to dead bodies? Can you use shadows to your own advantage regardless of whatever character you're playing? Line of sight and sound? Do enemies realize that their buddies who were supposed to make routine rounds have been missing for 20+ hours and haven't shown up yet?”

Can't put out light-sources, nothing is destructible, unless the it progresses the game further.
Enemies don't react to dead bodies.
You can use the shadows to your own advantage however.
Line of sight and sound also.
Enemies have no clue they've had buddies it would seem (unless their buddy screams)
 

Sol Invictus

Erudite
Joined
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Messages
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One thing to note before I respond to Lord Santa: Bloodlines is an RPG, not an FPS or an FPS/RPG. It's just a first person RPG. You are on crack if you complain about the FPS component.

Down to business.
Haven’t your mama taught you not to insult people?
Didn't your mother teach you how to speak proper English? I would suggest for you to keep your mouth shut (or likewise stop typing) before responding, in the future. Your speech impediment is nothing short of annoying.

LIES, I TELL YOU! LIES ALL OF THEM!!!

Get real…
To steal a phrase from Volourn, "Why do you lie?" Telling me to get real is no more a retort than your last sentence.

Haven’t played KOTOR yet, as for Gothic it was released three years ago…
Invalid. That describes both you and the poor attempt at a 'point' you just made. Fallout was released in 1997 and is still considered better than the large majority of RPGs out there.
 

Saint_Proverbius

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Behind you.
Lord_Santa said:
Morrowind (as mentioned) is a bad example, but mainly due to the fact that bethesda’s NPC’s are all ”dead” (total lack of personality)
But in the game you could (surprise, surprise) INTERACT with almost EVERY OBJECT

In Morrowind?! You've got to be kidding. You can interact with every single object in Morrowind so long as those objects are chests, doors, switches and items.

I see the source engine and I can move a chair or two, thus I think ”Hey Max Payne 2 physics on boxes, etc.”, but no. You can only interact with so many objects (which are very few) and all items you need will have a neat flashing light above them (or however you’d describe it), thus instantly leading you towards what you can and cannot pick-up.

Actually, that flashing light particle stuff is due to your attributes. Play a combat focused Brujah and you're not going to see all that. Furthermore, you can pick up chairs and toss them, rocks, boxes, and various other things and the NPCs will react to the sound. That alone beats Morrowind where the only sound NPCs and critters seem to react to are the sounds of you doing something right in front of them.

As to the freedom of choices; Gothic had as much freedom as any good RPG, although perhaps lacking a few options as in solving quests in different ways,

Which would be the most important aspect of freedom. When it comes down to it, there were only three types of character in Gothic - melee fighter, ranged fighter, and mage. That's because beyond the faction picking, the only resolution to anything in the game is killing something. There is no stealth route in Gothic. There is no diplomacy in Gothic. The only choice you have in the game is what you kill a monster with.


but hey, Gothic was released 2001 by an otherwise unknown company (still quite unknonwn) who tried to bring back OldSkool CRPG to the computers, by being INSPIRED by older CRPG’s (Ultima VII, anyone?)

Gothic was how many years after Fallout, again?

You want total freedom of speech? Try Ultima V: Warriors of Destiny or any textbased adventure.

I'm not talking about typing words in boxes to get hidden answers, which often results in easter eggs or dialogue cheat codes. I'm talking about stats and skills that alter or add to dialogue.

”Gothic may have NPC scheduling, but let's get real here. Gothic is las linear as it gets and the speech options are extremely limited. In fact, there's no much in the way of NPC stuff beyond once you pick a faction. ”

Well, then can you tell me why Vampire has NO NPC scheduling whatsoever??

Can you tell me why Gothic has no options for quest resolution than killing something? Watching NPC Bob cook a wolf leg then go to bed is cute for a while, but it ultimate adds nothing to the game itself other than forcing the player to occationally look for Bob because he may have wandered off to take a leak somewhere.

Oh, and Vampire does have NPC scheduling, which you said it had with the hobos moving around. There are others, because I've seen people wander around the clubs, going to and from locations as well. I've also seen a few stop and talk on their cell phones.
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
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"One thing to note before I respond to Lord Santa: Bloodlines is an RPG, not an FPS or an FPS/RPG. It's just a first person RPG. You are on crack if you complain about the FPS component"

So Troika lied? Afterall, they clearly said it was a FPS/RPG. WOWSERS! Troika are liars 'cause Exitium says so!
 

Limorkil

Liturgist
Joined
Jan 19, 2004
Messages
304
Lord_Santa said:
having (like most of us) waited for this game for a loooong time, I must say that I'm both thrilled and dissapointed.

but seriously, don't go around calling this an RPG
this is an adventure game, not an RPG

it follows the same trend as Beyond Good & Evil and Vice City, with the slight difference that you can distribute points.

it's linear... very linear.

how can it be impossible to create an interactive world, when Morrowind has already proven them wrong?

Anyone in here ever heard of Gothic? Gothic II?

I cannot for the world understand why they did not choose the Gothic II (at least) engine instead of HL2's source engine.

Gothic (both I and II) has a total freedom of choices, meanwhile it offers a huuuuuge world to explore and NPC's who actually (surprise) have PERSONALITY!

(I cut out some text to save space. The above bits are the bits I am commenting on.)

A game does not have to be non-linear in order to be an RPG. In fact, the 'popular' trend appears to be to make RPGs that have stronger stories and less wandering about aimlessly trying to level your character. Nothing wrong with that, IMO.

Morrowind let you wander all over the place. But not a damn thing you did made any difference to the world or its people. NPCs never moved, dialogue was non-existant. I actually like Morrowind, and I think its an RPG, but there is more to a RPG than freedom of movement. Morrowind focused on some RPG elements at the expense of others, as does Bloodlines. Its very hard to have total freedom and a strong story, and story sells much better. (I know you said Morrowind was a bad example, but it is a good example of how two RPGs can be very different and still be RPGs.)

I never played Gothic but I did play Gothic 2. Great game, although the engine sucks so recommending it for Bloodlines is not a good idea. I love the NPC schedules, most of the dialogue and most of the quests. I do not think the story is very strong, I do not think the character development is good, I think there is almost too much freedom in some respects because its way too easy to run into someone or something that will kill you near-instantly. I also did not like how your character could talk or fight, with little or no room for stealth or other actions. Not the same game experience as Morrowind, but still a good RPG.

I can't comment on Bloodlines. Maybe you do not like it, and thats fine. But don't go saying its not a RPG just because you can't wander aimlessly like Morrowind and there are no NPC schedules like Gothic. There are many elements to a RPG and each game tends to focus on some over others. Just because they do not give you the RPG elements you like does not mean its not an RPG.
 

Briosafreak

Augur
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Oct 21, 2002
Messages
792
Location
Atomic Portugal
Role-Player said:
Oh, cool Brios. Thanks 8)

Well just got HL2 (the guy at the counter said "i opened at 9:30 am and people are buying that game since then- must be big no?"- console kids...) but Bloodlines wasn`t in the next releases file on their comps, i`ll try other places.
 

taks

Liturgist
Joined
Oct 31, 2003
Messages
753
yeah, billy over at gaminggroove said he couldn't find it in stores anywhere so he was holding off on reporting it. even though BL doesn't compete in the same genre as HL2, it does have to compete for shelf space at each retailer.

overall, it sounds promising. i have not really been looking forward to it, but ex is right... our selection over the last few years has been lackluster so anything might give me reason to drool now. i'm still going to wait to see how the whole thing plays out.

taks
 

Ortchel

Liturgist
Joined
Apr 11, 2004
Messages
830
Sure, there are skills like skinning, but where are the speech skills? Hell, I don't even remember Gothic having thief style skills.

There is no stealth route in Gothic. There is no diplomacy in Gothic. The only choice you have in the game is what you kill a monster with.

You're given many occasions to avoid combat via dialogue. Besides, obviously, the only thing that matters in a game is dialogue, without it, every other aspect of gaming is apparently totally negated. Also, yes, there are thief skills; lockpicking, pickpocketing, sneaking, acrobatics, as well as a fucking Thieve's guild.

You didn't play Gothic did you?

Somebody get Saint a dialogue simulator.

Holy shit. This game outdoes Thief in every single one of its Thief-y aspects. Play a Nosferatu if you're a fan of the Thief series of games, where walking outside in public got you noticed by people and had cops chasing after you anyhow.

How sweet is that?

Riiight, you can walk around anywhere as a Nos. As long as you don't stand in front of the cop's face, no one bugs you. It's also impossible to scare away quest NPCs, who, after initially saying 'Hey you're kinda creepy' treat you like an average Joe Vampire. Also, what the fuck? Bloodlines lacks everything "Thief-y" about Thief, (thats the stupidest thing you've said all day, in a day full of stupid shit) except Bloodlines' sad little sneaking and lockpicking systems which pale in comparison to Thief's.

This is why you can'y listen to Exitium. He's extreme one wya or the other. Either agame really sucks or is really good. there is no between.

If just this once, Volourn, you couldn't be more right.
 

Whipporowill

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59°19'03"N 018°02'15"E
Well, maybe you can listen to me if you don't trust Rex?

I love Gothic to death, but the game is very different that it's more like a free roaming explore/combat simulation. In Bloodlines you can have a basic non-combat build and talk your way through the game (although at a few points you are forced to either sneak/fight, admittedly). Saying Gothic had options to avoid combat is silly, sure it did - but not regularly! There are some bandit encounters were you can fight or pay et c, but come on... :roll:

The game is based around 4 hubs, with several locations outside them - or backtracking to the old areas once the new ones are unlocked. You use a cab map kind of thing - pretty basic.
 

Ortchel

Liturgist
Joined
Apr 11, 2004
Messages
830
I've gotta disagree, I ran through a good 70% or so of Gothic 1 without ever engaging in combat, as an experiment. Most of the time, when you're not able to rely on diplomacy, or choose not to 'thief it', you can draw your enemy's fire (so to speak) onto other NPCs and avoid combat entirely.

Admittedly, that takes more effort than most gamers are willing to exert.

Also, this is a good opportunity for me to make a point I've been thinking about. Oftentimes, a highly interactive and immersive environment, for example, one that offers complex AI routines, environmental interaction, physics, even just realistic graphics can often be more compelling and conducive to roleplaying than a game with complex dialogue and a barren world. It's not fair to say that dialogue is the RPG trump card, if a game can immerse you, you will cease to care about whether or not you could blackmail the priest. The game that has you picking flowers because you want to will always trump the game that lets you pick flowers 50 different ways.
 

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