Can't decide which is better: Fallout 1 or Fallout 2.

[Surf Solar]

When it comes to content in RPG's.

quantity always beats quality.
(if we are talking actual level/quest design)

That is, i would rather have lots of npc, quests, cities, levels to be numerous and pieced together by setting guidelines.

That however...requires a need to have richly developed mechanics.


With "Quality" writing, quests and level design...you are usually making up for the lack of gameplay/RPG mechanics.. ----> bioware



*this is NOT meant to be a proof*

 

[deus101]

When it comes to content in RPG's.

quantity always beats quality.
(if we are talking actual level/quest design)

That is, i would rather have lots of npc, quests, cities, levels to be numerous and pieced together by setting guidelines.

That however...requires a need to have richly developed mechanics.


With "Quality" writing, quests and level design...you are usually making up for the lack of gameplay/RPG mechanics.. ----> bioware



*this is NOT meant to be a proof*

*sigh*

"(if we are talking actual level/quest design)"

Taking rouglikes and computer generated quests out of the equation, trying to set the stage that Im more or less talking about module writing here.( didnt have to but i was excpecting some obtuse ponce to bring up Daggerfall)


Maybe i went a bit overboard, what im actually aiming at is the overfixation of story writing then anything else.

 

[Marobug]

With "Quality" writing, quests and level design...you are usually making up for the lack of gameplay/RPG mechanics.. ----> bioware

Dude, bioware is a precise example of the opposite.

 

[deus101]

With "Quality" writing, quests and level design...you are usually making up for the lack of gameplay/RPG mechanics.. ----> bioware

Dude, bioware is a precise example of the opposite.

As i said..."Quality", DA has shitty encounters because it has shitty mechanics/setting.


Ok i realise i probably written myself into a false dichotomy here.



But my philosophy is this, since a crpg lacks a GM to relate details, as much encounters, npc's and events should be implemented as possible.

And RPG's are not about storytelling and Epics, never has, never will be, for writing to be interesting it needs fantatical and eccentric flavor.

 

[Daemongar]

What fucked up is that Fallout AI didn't know how to camp and wait reinforcement, and scenario wans't destructive. It had a single-minded willingness to kills its enemies, so when the player went into cover, it promptly ignored the player's NPCs and instead ran to reach the player and attack him. If the enemies knew how to camp and scenario was destructive, then if a player ran to cover, then the AI would simply camp its shooters facing every exits and windows, send any meleers near the doors and wait for the rest of the guards to arrive, then press a assault using grenades and explosives (Alternatively, the AI would just destroy the player's cover with explosives or strong energy weapons then shoot his coverless ass). This would make Fallout's AI much more meaner and hardcore, especially high-level enemies like Super Mutants, Enclave Troopers and Robots.

Really, I was just as annoyed. The game should have camped the exits, then had some negotiator talk with the player about how everyone could walk away peacefully, but unknown to the player, the negotiator was really just stalling for time. Could have talked to the player about growing up a tribal, and what life is like in the big crazy world. Then the game should have had the enemy load up a brahmin with dy-nee-mite and walked it in on where the player was camped. **KABLOOEEE** Maybe have the AI evolve over time so that once in a while, the negotiator just lets the player go, so the player doesn't shoot that brahmin on site. Not having AI like that is probably what doomed Interplay!!!

 

[MMXI]

But Fallout's movement in combat turns into the repetitive act of popping in and out of cover while shooting. Movement in combat can be a good thing, especially if you can control multiple characters, but in Fallout's case it adds nothing fun to the game.

Movement is pretty important in Fallout 2's harder combat. It is necessary to take cover, retreat, aproach or even try to out-snipe the enemy.

In the early game, combining a few punches and some retreat was a nice way not to get slaughtered by foes like giant ants, rats, small radscorpions and geckos. Taking cover is very important during certain fights (Den Slavers, New Reno Mobster fights, Military Base, Navarro, Enclave). Specially Navarro, where the Plasma Turrets and Enclavers WILL slaughter you if you don't keep away from the open areas. Bonus Move is one of the best perks in the game, even for gunfighters. A unarmed character with 12 AP + Bonus Move can run and punch up anyone with his mighty power fist.

What fucked up is that Fallout AI didn't know how to camp and wait reinforcement, and scenario wans't destructive. It had a single-minded willingness to kills its enemies, so when the player went into cover, it promptly ignored the player's NPCs and instead ran to reach the player and attack him. If the enemies knew how to camp and scenario was destructive, then if a player ran to cover, then the AI would simply camp its shooters facing every exits and windows, send any meleers near the doors and wait for the rest of the guards to arrive, then press a assault using grenades and explosives (Alternatively, the AI would just destroy the player's cover with explosives or strong energy weapons then shoot his coverless ass). This would make Fallout's AI much more meaner and hardcore, especially high-level enemies like Super Mutants, Enclave Troopers and Robots.

Did you read my post? I never said that Fallout's combat movement wasn't "important" to succeeding in combat. I know it is. And one of the reasons is because of broken AI. What I said is that it adds nothing to the game. The game could very well have had Wizardry (or Wasteland) type battles with your companions remaining controlled by the AI (as for some reason people here seem to like that) and combat would have been much quicker and straight to the point. Fallout did not have tactical combat. Not at all. Movement may have made it marginally more tactical, but not enough to make up for the slow and repetitive nature of combat movement.

It's pretty simple really. Either go for a full-blown tactical combat system that isn't repetitive, contains lots of options and allows for the direct control of multiple characters, or just do a Wizardry/Phantasie/Bard's Tale/Wasteland type system and get it over with quickly. You wouldn't even need to switch to a battle screen or anything. You could animate the combat entirely in the game so that everyone can get their death and shooting animation fix.

 

[Nael]

As I took some vacation time this week I have been playing Fallout 1 for the first time. Never played Fallout 2.

I actually just jumped on this section of the Codex to relay a very sad message: After 3 days of play; saving only to shut the program down, no reloads except when starting the game, and no deaths I was abducted by some Super Mutant and whisked away to a cell after being beaten senseless and told I would be "dipped." No lockpick skill. No ability to rest and wait and see if someone would open the door eventually. No way out it seems?

...

 

[Surf Solar]

Aww.

Wish I could play it again for the first time. Don't let yourself being demotivated by it, FO1 is no really big game, you probably haven't lost that much time, also now you already know a few quests and what places to avoid at low level etc.

 

[Nael]

Yeah. I am gonna give it another go if I have time this weekend.

 

[Destroid]

I think there is a way out of there without lockpicking? Of course, you should find it yourself (or admit failure and reload).

But you have done pretty damn well to not die yet on a first play through.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Tough question. Had to go replay Fallout 1 today to remind me which one is better since I haven't played FO1 in a long time. Just beat the Master and I gotta say FO2 is the superior game for me. To me it's p. much Fallout 1, but more meaty. Content takes the win here.

 

[George W. Kush]

I would have to pick Fallout 1 based on general principle because I hated Fallout 2's shitty beginning temple intro dungeon or whatever that seemed to last forever.

 

[zool]

I would have to pick Fallout 1 based on general principle because I hated Fallout 2's shitty beginning temple intro dungeon or whatever that seemed to last forever.

I really don't get the hate for the tribal feel/temple of trial beginning of FO2. Perhaps it's because I played FO2 first, and also because I was still a kid back then: anyway, the beautiful music and the elder's speech left a lasting impression on me. I don't recall it "seemed to last forever" either, and I think it did what he sought to do very well.

 

[Wyrmlord]

As I took some vacation time this week I have been playing Fallout 1 for the first time. Never played Fallout 2.

I actually just jumped on this section of the Codex to relay a very sad message: After 3 days of play; saving only to shut the program down, no reloads except when starting the game, and no deaths I was abducted by some Super Mutant and whisked away to a cell after being beaten senseless and told I would be "dipped." No lockpick skill. No ability to rest and wait and see if someone would open the door eventually. No way out it seems?

...

Of course there is a way out. Before being put in the cell.

You run past the damaged forcefield in the area where you are about to be beaten by Lou Tenant. You will take damage, but you will survive. Make sure to mess around with their computers before you leave, though. Just as a prank. It has an interesting consequence.

You won't be able to fight the mutants in the base at this stage, but you can run away from them. I had 10 Agility the last time I played and finished Fallout 1, so I didn't have a problem managing running away from there as a Level 4 character.

@Destroid
Yeah, I died often the first playthrough, because I didn't know Ian, Tycho, and Katja could be recruited.

 

[Dirk Diggler]

I would have to pick Fallout 1 based on general principle because I hated Fallout 2's shitty beginning temple intro dungeon or whatever that seemed to last forever.

I really don't get the hate for the tribal feel/temple of trial beginning of FO2. Perhaps it's because I played FO2 first, and also because I was still a kid back then: anyway, the beautiful music and the elder's speech left a lasting impression on me. I don't recall it "seemed to last forever" either, and I think it did what he sought to do very well.

I would make my own argument, but Eldritch really said it best:

I'll have to finish this masturbatory rant with my favorite mindfuck from Fallout 2, the "bullshit tribals"... Sweet crotch-grabbing Christ suffering on a diamond-studded pogo stick... This is like that thing I was talking about when saying: "retardedly caricaturized". I guess people could use the hunter-gatherer methods in order to survive and develop small, tightly-knit tribal relationships that would protect them in a harsh post-apoc world BUT(that's a big butt right there)------ would it really look like THAT? Did the people adopt some generic neolithic culture that is entirely irrelevant to the few generations before them because it would be liek... totally awesome and cool if they liek... dressed in these totally tribal looking indian leather straps, had these tribal tats and grampy bones liek pierced in their noses, spoke in a forced english accent containing all sorts of pseudo-spiritual mumbo-jumbo and gave their children names like Kaga, TORRR, Narogggg, Kaganargtorggggg because they decided to become effective hunter-gatherers they should adopt this caricaturized t-t-t-tribal fashion?????? Hey honey, we should totally name our boy Toragg cuz' you know what? It sounds totally TRIBAL that way. He would make for a better member of our forced hunter-gatherer society with a name like Toragg because that name is giving me some major tribal vibes here. WOULDN'T IT BE COOL IF we enriched our new tribal lifestyle with the whole shebang. Let's show them how it's done, let's go tribal on their asses. Neolithic tribal style is cool but I'm thinking of a more Native American fashion with a Jamaican accent for our tribe, we would be cooler that way. WOULDN'T IT BE COOL IF..

http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic ... &start=125

 

[SCO]

That's what you get from having a inferior (artistically) hobby.