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Incline Chris Avellone Appreciation Station

Developer
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Messages
460
Location
Moblin Villige
Non-trolling.

Chris Avellone will we see you have a bigger role in any upcoming game? And how is your studio looking? No bullshitting, I really do miss your writing. I'd love to see you do more than just have your name pop up randomly in games like Into the Breach. (No disrespect to the game itself.)

Short answer: Role: Yes. Studio: Nothing new to report. My writing: That's very kind, thank you, but keep reading. Random Name in Random Game: It may seem random, but many such seeds have been planted and they're ready when they're ready. There's also a reason I take challenges like that (below).

Long answer: Someone else asked something similar to your question, but I can’t find their post, but I’ll do the initial response to yours instead – so even when being lead designer/writer even on a DLC, you don’t write everything. Granted, you can steer the ship, but the drawback is usually the more you steer the ship, the less you write.

The only time I felt like I wrote in a manner I think you’re expressing that I should return to/do again is Torment, and maybe the FNV DLCs (K2 was too haphazard to count, imo – there was a skeleton there, but barely time for any organs, and I take the blame for that and learned from it). I didn’t write any of those games by myself. I’d also argue that my work on a number of these projects wasn’t any good, which made me take a step back and realize there’s something wrong with my process as well as the process itself. I’m happy if older works end up being the best thing I’ve ever done, but I wouldn’t be content with that if I didn’t try to get better, then do something better.

When I work on a title, I do more than concept work (but I’m not going to try to convince anyone otherwise) and I’ve never taken a job that’s solely “I’ll just review this,” there’s always content and system work involved, whether Prey, Divinity, Wasteland, Burden of Command, Kingmaker, or Into the Breach – and those are just the ones announced. I rarely do any pre-production work, it’s usually early production, production, or late production. With Into the Breach, I did the majority of the writing (Matthew, the programmer of the duo wrote Zenith and parts of Dewey Alms and he and Justin also worked with me on the archetypes for the pilots and lore), I wrote a lot of the background lore and corporation work, did the reactivity scripting, and other production work all the way to the end/bug fixing/QA, etc. I wasn’t in pre-production for ITB. While it’s a small game by comparison to other games I’ve worked on, I did work on it for 3 years, so sometimes it takes time for things to get announced. It also taught me a studio of two (with some contractors, sure) can get a lot of work done, turn out a quality product, and still declare their release date as "when it's ready," which is music to my ears.

So yes, even if I’m not always steering the ship (although sometimes I am), I do think taking some time to branch out and learn to be a better writer – both game-wise and genre-wise - is a good investment. That means learning new tools, new production methods, working with more writers and developers, working in brand-new IPs as well as established franchises (established franchises can inform your writing in interesting ways, even if you don’t “own” the world), working in other genres (including non-RPGs), and doing other types of design vs. just writing. It means a lot of new mistakes along the way, but that's fine - it just hopefully means you won't make those same mistakes in the future, so best to get them out of the way as quickly as possible.
 
Developer
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Messages
460
Location
Moblin Villige
Chris, is the codex the only forum where you are registered ?

And by the way, why are you there? Why did you choose this forum?

No, I'm on Reddit, RPG Watch, and Something Awful, among others (it's always my own name - although I used to be "Cube D Cube" b/c that name was chosen for me before I reverted it, and I don't know if that change goes back retroactively through all the SA posts).

I don't post a lot, though, as you can probably tell from my frequency of posting here, I usually don't have the time. I usually answer a lot of questions on Twitter b/c it's easier to do there.
 

Daedalos

Arcane
The Real Fanboy
Joined
Apr 18, 2007
Messages
5,572
Location
Denmark
Chris, what are your thoughts on Iron Tower's, The New World?

Did you have any contact with InXile and Brian about work on Wasteland 3?

What parts of Prey did you work on, and were you satisfied with the end result and the game overall?

Have you played Underrail? - If so, what did ya think?
 

lophiaspis

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 24, 2012
Messages
379
Chris, have you been following No Truce With The Furies?

Robert Kurvitz has some very fresh ideas for CRPGs such as removing the tactical combat layer and resolving all fights in the dialogue system. Considering almost every BIS/Troika/Obsidian RPG has been praised for its narrative but criticized for its combat, is this something you will consider for your future games?
 

polo

Magister
Joined
Jul 8, 2014
Messages
1,737
Non-trolling.

Chris Avellone will we see you have a bigger role in any upcoming game? And how is your studio looking? No bullshitting, I really do miss your writing. I'd love to see you do more than just have your name pop up randomly in games like Into the Breach. (No disrespect to the game itself.)

Short answer: Role: Yes. Studio: Nothing new to report. My writing: That's very kind, thank you, but keep reading. Random Name in Random Game: It may seem random, but many such seeds have been planted and they're ready when they're ready. There's also a reason I take challenges like that (below).

Long answer: Someone else asked something similar to your question, but I can’t find their post, but I’ll do the initial response to yours instead – so even when being lead designer/writer even on a DLC, you don’t write everything. Granted, you can steer the ship, but the drawback is usually the more you steer the ship, the less you write.

The only time I felt like I wrote in a manner I think you’re expressing that I should return to/do again is Torment, and maybe the FNV DLCs (K2 was too haphazard to count, imo – there was a skeleton there, but barely time for any organs, and I take the blame for that and learned from it). I didn’t write any of those games by myself. I’d also argue that my work on a number of these projects wasn’t any good, which made me take a step back and realize there’s something wrong with my process as well as the process itself. I’m happy if older works end up being the best thing I’ve ever done, but I wouldn’t be content with that if I didn’t try to get better, then do something better.

When I work on a title, I do more than concept work (but I’m not going to try to convince anyone otherwise) and I’ve never taken a job that’s solely “I’ll just review this,” there’s always content and system work involved, whether Prey, Divinity, Wasteland, Burden of Command, Kingmaker, or Into the Breach – and those are just the ones announced. I rarely do any pre-production work, it’s usually early production, production, or late production. With Into the Breach, I did the majority of the writing (Matthew, the programmer of the duo wrote Zenith and parts of Dewey Alms and he and Justin also worked with me on the archetypes for the pilots and lore), I wrote a lot of the background lore and corporation work, did the reactivity scripting, and other production work all the way to the end/bug fixing/QA, etc. I wasn’t in pre-production for ITB. While it’s a small game by comparison to other games I’ve worked on, I did work on it for 3 years, so sometimes it takes time for things to get announced. It also taught me a studio of two (with some contractors, sure) can get a lot of work done, turn out a quality product, and still declare their release date as "when it's ready," which is music to my ears.

So yes, even if I’m not always steering the ship (although sometimes I am), I do think taking some time to branch out and learn to be a better writer – both game-wise and genre-wise - is a good investment. That means learning new tools, new production methods, working with more writers and developers, working in brand-new IPs as well as established franchises (established franchises can inform your writing in interesting ways, even if you don’t “own” the world), working in other genres (including non-RPGs), and doing other types of design vs. just writing. It means a lot of new mistakes along the way, but that's fine - it just hopefully means you won't make those same mistakes in the future, so best to get them out of the way as quickly as possible.

A lot of ship references here, MCA lead writer in Deadfire DLC/Expansion 1000% confirmed u saw it here folks!!!!111
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
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Messages
97,505
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
When I work on a title, I do more than concept work (but I’m not going to try to convince anyone otherwise) and I’ve never taken a job that’s solely “I’ll just review this,” there’s always content and system work involved, whether Prey, Divinity, Wasteland, Burden of Command, Kingmaker, or Into the Breach – and those are just the ones announced. I rarely do any pre-production work, it’s usually early production, production, or late production. With Into the Breach, I did the majority of the writing (Matthew, the programmer of the duo wrote Zenith and parts of Dewey Alms and he and Justin also worked with me on the archetypes for the pilots and lore), I wrote a lot of the background lore and corporation work, did the reactivity scripting, and other production work all the way to the end/bug fixing/QA, etc. I wasn’t in pre-production for ITB. While it’s a small game by comparison to other games I’ve worked on, I did work on it for 3 years, so sometimes it takes time for things to get announced. It also taught me a studio of two (with some contractors, sure) can get a lot of work done, turn out a quality product, and still declare their release date as "when it's ready," which is music to my ears.

This is a response to me, I believe: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...eciation-station.101693/page-174#post-5478222

What can I say? The kind of work you do nowadays feels like "Chris Avellone's ideas filtered and watered down through multiple iterations of production by other people". There's nothing that feels sharply like "Oh yeah, this is definitely the part of the game that Avellone actually wrote". Maybe that's the way you prefer it now.
 

Quillon

Arcane
Joined
Dec 15, 2016
Messages
5,240
So yes, even if I’m not always steering the ship (although sometimes I am)

Sometimes = NV DLCs and before?

Stop getting better and start steering(its what everyone is waiting to see from you) or are you afraid of failing? The pressure worries you? Do you feel your career has peaked with PST? :P f.i. Would anyone dared say "no" to you if you told them "I'm gonna be lead writer/designer on this" back in 2012? :D
 

fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
37,180
Location
Bulgaria
Chris Avellone why writers have stopped coming up with original,unique and insane settings like Morrowind or Torment? Is there no imagination left in the industry? And do you still daydream about alien new worlds filled with adventures and exotic encounters?

I think writers have, but maybe not as much in the RPG arena. Definitely in the indie space and the <10 million budget games (and I don't think PoE intended to be as "Baldur's Gate-y" at the outset, it just became that way).

It's worth noting that Planescape wasn't a Black Isle creation, it was a TSR/Wizards of the Coast creation (and they did stop doing content for it). While Torment eventually made a profit, it certainly wasn't at the same level as other titles in the RPG space, including ones already being worked on in Black Isle (Baldur's Gate).

Also, another thing to keep in mind is how quickly games return on their investment - just turning a profit doesn't equate to a success. I don't have the exact sales figures for Torment, but if a game recovers its operating cost in three months vs. three years, the former is obviously a bigger plus for the company when considering future installments or deciding whether or not to work in certain genres again. Ideally, you don't want a game to ever just make a profit, ideally you want that profit to be able to cover at least one more game without stress, improve the studio (hey, we can afford our own QA now, or hey, now we can have our own audio dept), cover employee raises and bonuses for hard work, and also be enjoyed by players and reviewed well, too, among other aspects. (A game can make a profit but tank critically, for example, which can perpetually damage a franchise and a studio.)
Hahahaha,a question about imagination and a answer about financial balance.
 
Developer
Joined
Jan 30, 2005
Messages
460
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Moblin Villige
Hahahaha,a question about imagination and a answer about financial balance.

I probably could have phrased the first sentence better, but reworded it's: "Writers are doing cool and unique worlds. Just not as much in some genres, and usually not over certain budgets." So I disagree with your perception, but I do think it's partly affected by the financials of a game - the more costly a game, the less risk people backing a game want to take with the world and setting. I think Tyranny's setting was a little risky, and unfortunately, it didn't do as well as hoped, but at least it came out (Stormlands and other projects didn't even have the chance). Other times, however, you take a risk and knock it out of the park (Fallout 1) but even Fallout 1 was orchestrated to be as little risk as possible (GURPS, spiritual successor to Wasteland, etc.).

This is a response to me, I believe: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...eciation-station.101693/page-174#post-5478222

What can I say? The kind of work you do nowadays feels like "Chris Avellone's ideas filtered and watered down through multiple iterations of production by other people". There's nothing that feels sharply like "Oh yeah, this is definitely the part of the game that Avellone actually wrote". Maybe that's the way you prefer it now.

I can’t argue with feelings or perception, but if you didn’t think my work was any good or didn’t stand out, I agree, and even though I worked hard on those projects, I do feel I need to improve.

What you describe with filtering can happen on projects, though, and across all departments, not just writing, but I don't know which games you're specifically referring to, though. For the record, I have worked on projects where I didn't write dialogue, and I never claimed to, and some projects I did solely system and production work.

Still, while I don't want to debate feelings or perception, I did think providing some facts could help. I do realize my words don’t hold much weight, in which case, you’re welcome to check with others (it’s why I provided a people list for the NWN2 companions, for example).
 

Kyl Von Kull

The Night Tripper
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Still, while I don't want to debate feelings or perception, I did think providing some facts could help. I do realize my words don’t hold much weight, in which case, you’re welcome to check with others (it’s why I provided a people list for the NWN2 companions, for example).

Guys, you broke Chris Avellone. This has crossed the line from extreme humility to Stockholm syndrome.
 

Grotesque

±¼ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Messages
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Divinity: Original Sin Divinity: Original Sin 2
Chris, what are your thoughts on Iron Tower's, The New World?

Did you have any contact with InXile and Brian about work on Wasteland 3?

What parts of Prey did you work on, and were you satisfied with the end result and the game overall?

Have you played Underrail? - If so, what did ya think?


Dildolos!
Is... is it really you?
 

Daedalos

Arcane
The Real Fanboy
Joined
Apr 18, 2007
Messages
5,572
Location
Denmark
Chris, what are your thoughts on Iron Tower's, The New World?

Did you have any contact with InXile and Brian about work on Wasteland 3?

What parts of Prey did you work on, and were you satisfied with the end result and the game overall?

Have you played Underrail? - If so, what did ya think?


Dildolos!
Is... is it really you?

It is I. I'm back, friend. Have you missed me? :love:
 

Grotesque

±¼ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Patron
Vatnik
Joined
Apr 16, 2012
Messages
9,021
Divinity: Original Sin Divinity: Original Sin 2
Chris, what are your thoughts on Iron Tower's, The New World?

Did you have any contact with InXile and Brian about work on Wasteland 3?

What parts of Prey did you work on, and were you satisfied with the end result and the game overall?

Have you played Underrail? - If so, what did ya think?


Dildolos!
Is... is it really you?

It is I. I'm back, friend. Have you missed me? :love:

only your fanboying!
 

ga♥

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Feb 3, 2017
Messages
7,616
Chris, do you think that having more of your hands in the "management" aspect, as in obsiddian you were an owner, did obstacle your creative side? I am not sure what exactly was your role there (beside writing obviously) but I always felt by the answers in you gave in interviews that you did know how the business went, you knew publishers role, psychology and all that.

So, did you having to deal with managing issues "killed" a bit of your creativity? Or maybe creativity is just a business like any other and filling tax forms for you employees is the poetry of the 21th century?

Also, you never replied about my question about learning Italian (also gestures).

P.S Obviously my assumption (a-la Roguey) is that you had to deal with them. Maybe you didn't.
 
Last edited:

agentorange

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rpghq (cant read codex pms cuz of fag 2fa)
Codex 2012
(K2 was too haphazard to count, imo – there was a skeleton there, but barely time for any organs, and I take the blame for that and learned from it).
By K2 do you mean KOTOR2? It's funny you would say it was only a skeleton, since the desolate, haunting atmosphere was what was most attractive to me. I suppose I can see how that would be a result of not being able to flesh the game out adequately, but I would say it worked in the game's favor. It gave the world this melancholic, mysterious tone that was so atypical of Star Wars.

Related to that, how do you feel about games like Demon's Souls or Silent Hill 2, where the strength of their narrative lies in what they don't say--a lack of exposition. Your writings tends to be very verbose, although you usually manage to pull it off where others fall flat. Now days I see a lot of developers advertising the sheer amount of writing their games have (over 1 million lines of dialogue! and so on) and I can't help but feel they are missing the point of what people liked about Planescape or other classic games carried by their story--the quality of the writing, not the quantity.
 

m_s0

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
1,289
(K2 was too haphazard to count, imo – there was a skeleton there, but barely time for any organs, and I take the blame for that and learned from it).
By K2 do you mean KOTOR2? It's funny you would say it was only a skeleton, since the desolate, haunting atmosphere was what was most attractive to me. I suppose I can see how that would be a result of not being able to flesh the game out adequately, but I would say it worked in the game's favor. It gave the world this melancholic, mysterious tone that was so atypical of Star Wars.
If that's what Chris meant by 'skeleton' I totally agree with the above sentiment. It gives the game an elegiac tone - very uncommon, a far cry from the usual power fantasy bs we get in video games, and a perfect fit for the themes. Intentional or not, it elevates the game to an experience. I'd go as far as to say that this is what saves the game.
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
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Messages
56,650
Chris, why is every game shit nowadays? As an insider in the industry, explain this to us, please!

[Fake edit] Yes i know not every game is actually bad and not every classic game was a masterpiece but something definitely changed, don't lie.
 

fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
Joined
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Messages
37,180
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Bulgaria
Hahahaha,a question about imagination and a answer about financial balance.

I probably could have phrased the first sentence better, but reworded it's: "Writers are doing cool and unique worlds. Just not as much in some genres, and usually not over certain budgets." So I disagree with your perception, but I do think it's partly affected by the financials of a game - the more costly a game, the less risk people backing a game want to take with the world and setting. I think Tyranny's setting was a little risky, and unfortunately, it didn't do as well as hoped, but at least it came out (Stormlands and other projects didn't even have the chance). Other times, however, you take a risk and knock it out of the park (Fallout 1) but even Fallout 1 was orchestrated to be as little risk as possible (GURPS, spiritual successor to Wasteland, etc.).

Original and imaginative doesn't necessary mean costly. The biggest danger of originality is,not checking the demographics boxes. Which is not such a huge danger for rpgs,the genre is kind fuelled on such things. Less risky could be risky in it self,humans are easily bored and doing the same thing over and over again gets old. Especially in a genre where the fans are arguably intelligent. Also you can have original and imaginative writing in a cliche world.

Tyranny setting was far from risky,it was just another conqueror=evil guy in a typical fantasy world. The game didn't sell well because paradox are utter shit at marketing,making youtube and twitch videos and misrepresenting the game is not how you sell products. Another thing about the game is the poor writing. I am pretty shit at grammar and don't notice many mistakes,but by the end of my playthrough i found maybe a dozen misspells and bad sentences.

I do know about risk assessment,value degradation,investment returns,market saturation and a few other things. I wasted a few years of my life studding this shit.
 

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