Could we jst ban people who say they pirate new indie games?

[Grunker]

You're avoiding my question. If we want people to act a certain way, then they're not going to do so out of their own volution (maybe some, but certainly not all, certainly not on the Codex).

You said you didn't want to ban the offenders - so what exactly do you suggest?

But I guess your post is just a letting out air, and not really a suggestion for anything?

 

[skuphundaku]

But now I'm wondering what other secret tools of the trade you possess that will limit the behaviour of which you speak without a ban and that will satisfy my irrational hunger for freedom (tm)

For once I could expect the local populace to understand that NOT telling everyone in an interview or news thread how you will totally pirate this game because:
1) it has DRM
2) it's on steam
3) it's not on steam
4) it doesn't have DRM
5) 1000 other reasons
6) if all else fails then because it's *shit*

could contribute towards getting more interviews in the future. Basically, you all could just stop doing it because I say so. Doing what I tell you when I tell you is a guarantee for awesome results irl too.

If you think people come here for the interviews and that they would have interviews rather than the freedom to say whatever they want, then I think you're mistaken. "Basically, you all could just stop doing it because I say so. Doing what I tell you when I tell you is a guarantee for awesome results irl too." Why don't you ban everyone that doesn't agree with your points of view then? DU is already on a rampage. You may just as well follow through with a proper genocide to make your point. Let's see how long the Codex would survive after the righteous purge of 2011.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

You said you didn't want to ban the offenders - so what exactly do you suggest?

What is there to do except either censorship or banning of users?

Censorship like deleting the post in question or removing posting rights in news & content.

The question is where we put our priorities. What's more important? The [oh so valuable] freedom of users to engage in their "Fuck you capitalist pig dog scum! I pay for nothing! You hear me? NOTHING!" jerk-offs or a healthier relationship with developers. For me it's the latter.

 

[Grunker]

Sorry to be a harsh bastard, but you're delusional in my opinion. If you start banning that kindda stuff (i.e. giving the mods reign to "decide what's offensive) I don't in anyway see how the Codex can survive as a bastion of harsh criticism. We already have people who think it's wrong to harshly criticize indie devs just because they're indie.

I would hate not being able to read Black Cat's insane ravings, and I think you avoided answering the post where I explain why.

In short, I don't see the difference between the Codex you are describing and the Watch. Maybe you can explain it for me?

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Why don't you ban everyone that doesn't agree with your points of view then?

Because I'm not in favor of perma-banning. Unlike others.

DU is already on a rampage. You may just as well follow through with a proper genocide to make your point. Let's see how long the Codex would survive after the righteous purge of 2011.

I see, the great losses we would suffer will make the survival of the Codex very unlikely. Because the Codex runs on dumbfuckery as fuel and what would we do without it?

 

[Grunker]

I would certainly leave. I don't see the percentage in staying if the Codex loses its teeth. I know you might not cry salty eagle tears if I leave, but I hope you don't consider me a dumbfuck. So it was just to say that if you remove the dumbfuckery you most definetely remove other stuff as well.

That's the problem, isn't it?

 

[Kz3r0]

You said you didn't want to ban the offenders - so what exactly do you suggest?

What is there to do except either censorship or banning of users?

Censorship like deleting the post in question or removing posting rights in news & content.

The question is where we put our priorities. What's more important? The [oh so valuable] freedom of users to engage in their "Fuck you capitalist pig dog scum! I pay for nothing! You hear me? NOTHING!" jerk-offs or a healthier relationship with developers. For me it's the latter.

Actually paying the least possible price for something is a healthy capitalist practice called free market , labor exploitation in the third world by corporations rings a bell?.
Don't go the Wyrmlord way, this has nothing to do with ideology.
On the subject at hand, my stalinist proposal is to grant posting right in News and Comments only at the most active, and trusted, posters of that section.

 

[skuphundaku]

DU is already on a rampage. You may just as well follow through with a proper genocide to make your point. Let's see how long the Codex would survive after the righteous purge of 2011.

I see, the great losses we would suffer will make the survival of the Codex very unlikely. Because the Codex runs on dumbfuckery as fuel and what would we do without it?

No, because if you start censoring and banning (which is still censorship, just the implemntation details being different), then what would make the Codex in any way better than IGN, or GameSpot, or any other website/forum out there? The biggest thing the Codex has is its freedom of speech. When you ban a shit poster that spams threads and derails threads, you are actually protecting the freedom of speech of the rest, but when you start censoring and banning based on whether someone agrees with your points of view or not, then the whole freedom of speech goes out the window and the Codex loses one of the most important things that makes it what it is.

On a related note, I don't think that indie devs should be treated any differently than established/AAA/whatever devs. If you don't operate from principles and don't hold everybody to the same standards, it would be hypocritical to start talking about ethics and how your ethics are better than somebody else's ethics.

 

[Walkin' Dude]

Sometimes I will give in to my urge to buy an indie game, but then I will download a pirated copy 2 or 3 times just to hurt their sales and offset the money they made from my purchase.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Sorry to be a harsh bastard, but you're delusional in my opinion. If you start banning that kindda stuff (i.e. giving the mods reign to "decide what's offensive) I don't in anyway see how the Codex can survive as a bastion of harsh criticism. We already have people who think it's wrong to harshly criticize indie devs just because they're indie.

I would hate not being able to read Black Cat's insane ravings, and I think you avoided answering the post where I explain why.

In short, I don't see the difference between the Codex you are describing and the Watch. Maybe you can explain it for me?

Does that mean you can't understand the difference between *harsh criticism* or *freely expressing your opinion on game X* and the piracy circlejerks I was talking about?

Or are you just not willing to understand?
Maybe you can explain first how disallowing "I'm totally gonna pirate this game because it's shit and you should too!" posts will prevent you from harshly criticising indie games or freely expressing your opinions.

 

[villain of the story]

I'm wondering, why is VentilatorOfDoom here at all? RPGWatch seems like a better place for him.

 

[Trash]

With the level of freedom of speech granted on the codex comes that with the occasional good you also get a whole lot of bad. Imma gonna pirate dis game fuk u bullshit is just another part of that. The legion of entitled trolling herpers might hurt the interviews, the standing, the discussions or even the site as a whole but to do something about it would also mean having to change the nature of the site.

 

[Grunker]

Does that mean you can't understand the difference between *harsh criticism* or *freely expressing your opinion on game X* and the piracy circlejerks I was talking about?

No, it means that if you remove the right to one the other will soon follow, and you very well this was what I meant. It is evidenced on any other board in existence. If what you're talking about is possible, why then are not other gaming boards as critical as we are?

Maybe you can explain first how disallowing "I'm totally gonna pirate this game because it's shit and you should too!" posts will prevent you from harshly criticising indie games or freely expressing your opinions.

Because forum rules are not law. Forum rules are a despotic leadership under the admin and his mods. That much is a given. The more you expand the mods' capabilities to ban shit the more they will do it. Do you really think it's possible to make a rules that says "ban all talk of piracy" without harming legitimate criticism? For one, you will harm all the legitimate debates I've been involved in for the last three days - I speak openly about piracy in those.

For another, for every rule there is a grey territory, for every law more "innocents" will be hit - this is a natural law of making rules. No mod is perfect.

DarkUnderlord himself made an EXCELLENT post on the subject, explaining this much better than me, (in the RPGCodex is a cesspool thread?), in response to Vibalist.

Trash also nails it pretty well.

The fact is that you cannot have the Codex without the Codex, and that's essentially what you seem to want.

 

[skuphundaku]

Does that mean you can't understand the difference between *harsh criticism* or *freely expressing your opinion on game X* and the piracy circlejerks I was talking about?

Or are you just not willing to understand?
Maybe you can explain first how disallowing "I'm totally gonna pirate this game because it's shit and you should too!" posts will prevent you from harshly criticising indie games or freely expressing your opinions.

There is no difference. Speech is speech. Your way of thinking is the reason for all the retarded "Hate speech" laws all over Europe. I really didn't want it to come to this, but here it goes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came…. You should be familliar with it.

 

[Grunker]

^ Excuse me, but that's bullshit. You're comparing law directly to forum rules, and they operate differently (one is despotic, the other is democratic). Furthermore, Scandinavia's free speech works fine with hate speech laws. Denmark, for example, have only outlawed three (four?) organizations since it became a Reichstat in spite of the few limitations it has on free speech.

Furthermore, forum rules against "free speech" can work when they are extremely narrow. We have a rule that you can't post anything illegal or post NSFW material in threads not labeled as such. These rules work fine.

 

[Oriebam]

If you guys come up with some nicely jury rigged developer-friendliness rules(something like allowing people to say games are shit and suits are fags in the General Forums but not in the rest, OF COURSE not like this but you get the idea, make some sort of brainstorming thread if you can't think of anything) I think our freedom can co-exist with censorship very easily, dunno if censorship would actually help us getting some interviews though, shit just gets bashed way too often and I dunno this place has any "PR" value

I mean, if to this day there was no mention of piracy here, would it really make a difference?


Just don't make this place like the escapist so that people get banned for saying they will pirate shit, It is reasonable to forbid people from asking for advice on pirating some of the newer games or the ones with struggling developers(always the fucking indies), like I did recently

 

[Kz3r0]

So people think that the Codex can't survive without holocaust deniers that are here only because they can write NIGGERJEWNIGGERJEW and idiots that love to yell at des"Imma pirating all you shit mothatfucka, in your face,lolololol"?
Well, I for one am not here for that, let me have my LPs and discussions about old games and I will stay here as long as I can.

 

[skuphundaku]

^ Excuse me, but that's bullshit. You're comparing law directly to forum rules, and they operate differently (one is despotic, the other is democratic). Furthermore, Scandinavia's free speech works fine with hate speech laws. Denmark, for example, have only outlawed three (four?) organizations since it became a Reichstat in spite of the few limitations it has on free speech.

Once you outlaw even a single organization on the basis of hate speech laws, then you've already opened a can of worms. The fact that it hasn't snowballed into something worse is the fact that the Scandinavian countries have a history of being quite decent and democratic... at least in the recent past. Put the same tools into the hand of some less scrupulous governments and you have a recipe for nastyness.

Furthermore, forum rules against "free speech" can work when they are extremely narrow. We have a rule that you can't post anything illegal or post NSFW material in threads not labeled as such. These rules work fine.

I agree with this. Unfortunately, VoD seems to think they're too narrow.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

No, it means that if you remove the right to one the other will soon follow, and you very well this was what I meant.

No, it won't soon follow because it's not even up for discussion. In the eyes of developers the Codex has a reputation of being all pirates (remember Jeff Vogel?). I think it's just a vocal minority that's to blame and I wouldn't mind a slightly better rep for the site.

 

[Bulba]

Herp. Would that stop them from pirating the games?

No. But it will help to prevent their idiotic bragging about their pirating. Do they even understand it's not a proud activity?

who made you a moral judge? go suck your mummy titi.

 

[Fowyr]

With the level of freedom of speech granted on the codex comes that with the occasional good you also get a whole lot of bad. Imma gonna pirate dis game fuk u bullshit is just another part of that. The legion of entitled trolling herpers might hurt the interviews, the standing, the discussions or even the site as a whole but to do something about it would also mean having to change the nature of the site.

Triple fucking this.

 

[Wyrmlord]

Why do you bitch about Oblivion then? According to 3 mln of people it's a fun game.

Why don't you bitch when people here shit on Bioware and Bethesda? Their games are really fun according to many many many other people who rate them 10/10

But as soon as some indie shit gets bashed we have knights coming out of the woodwork to defend it.

I don't bitch about Oblivion.

I don't have any emotional investment in strongly criticising or strongly defending BioWare and Bethesda.

In fact, neither do a lot of people. Some of us just happen to check the wrong threads on RPG Codex.

 

[commie]

I would certainly leave. I don't see the percentage in staying if the Codex loses its teeth. I know you might not cry salty eagle tears if I leave, but I hope you don't consider me a dumbfuck. So it was just to say that if you remove the dumbfuckery you most definetely remove other stuff as well.

That's the problem, isn't it?

I see what you're saying, but I think you are focusing on the wrong thing. Fuckheads that gloat about piracy whenever we get a dev showing up to discuss their game isn't worthy of some Voltairean defense. That's just standard trolling shit of the kind that has always been fought and derided in these parts. I don't see you howling about not being able to post NSFW stuff in every thread for example. Why not? That's also impinging upon your 'freedoms' isn't it? Why aren't you up in arms that the average Codexer cannot post man-boy love stuff anywhere he wants to? It's not even illegal everywhere!

 

[Wyrmlord]

So people think that the Codex can't survive without holocaust deniers that are here only because they can write NIGGERJEWNIGGERJEW and idiots that love to yell at des"Imma pirating all you shit mothatfucka, in your face,lolololol"?
Well, I for one am not here for that, let me have my LPs and discussions about old games and I will stay here as long as I can.

You have some rather diversionary tendencies in every topic, which is why you brought up holocaust denial in a piracy thread.

As for your question, the Codex can survive with them too, as much as it can without them. There is no "crowding out" of good discussions due to bad discussions. The Codex is not a zero-sum game.

Even as the influx of empty, insubstantiating cynical posters without anything relevant to say about a game keeps rising, so does the influx of great LPs and a few amazing threads in General Gaming silencing the haters. The former has not crowded the latter; the Codex is a constantly increasing pie of good and bad. It's not a pie of the same size where the bad composes more of the pie than the good as the bad rises.

 

[commie]

I've noticed that the people with the greatest investment in maintaining the 'right to derp' are those that have nothing meaningful to contribute otherwise.