David Gaider (former lead writer and creator of Dragon Age) says BioWare "quietly resented" its writers

[Baldanders]

I feel like every game writer has one truly wonderful story to tell, maybe two in exceptional cases. And that's perfectly fine.

Everything after that is just money milking. Happy to be proven wrong if someone can think of a game writer who keeps releasing gem after gem. I can't think of a single one.

Gaming needs Neil Breen.


He is an unstoppable force.

Forgive me for saying this but wouldn't the gaming Neil Breen be Pirhana Bytes?

 

[Cat Headed Eagle]

I feel like every game writer has one truly wonderful story to tell, maybe two in exceptional cases. And that's perfectly fine.

Everything after that is just money milking. Happy to be proven wrong if someone can think of a game writer who keeps releasing gem after gem. I can't think of a single one.

Gaming needs Neil Breen.


He is an unstoppable force.

Forgive me for saying this but wouldn't the gaming Neil Breen be Pirhana Bytes?

I think one of Breen's movies deals with him being a hacker who is up to destroy the international banking system and toppling the corrupt governments of the world, so I'd rather point that into Deus Ex's destroy ending.

 

[Old Hans]

"good stories and characters"
The hype was you could bang aliens and swamp witches. In retrospect and closer examination, most of Bioware's stories and characters have been shit for over a decade, propped up by internet waifuism and selective memory, as well as the fact of each successive game being worse made the previous one seem better. Remember when Mass Effect 2 was getting railed online for having an awful story and shitty writing compared to 1? Then 3 came along. Same with Dragon Age 2 then Inquisition. And when Dreadwolf launches, if it ever does, Inquisition will then be remembered fondly.

I seem to recall the complaints were mostly around how disconnected the 2nd game was from the 1st. it was like an x-files filler episode

 

[Cat Headed Eagle]

"good stories and characters"
The hype was you could bang aliens and swamp witches. In retrospect and closer examination, most of Bioware's stories and characters have been shit for over a decade, propped up by internet waifuism and selective memory, as well as the fact of each successive game being worse made the previous one seem better. Remember when Mass Effect 2 was getting railed online for having an awful story and shitty writing compared to 1? Then 3 came along. Same with Dragon Age 2 then Inquisition. And when Dreadwolf launches, if it ever does, Inquisition will then be remembered fondly.

I seem to recall the complaints were mostly around how disconnected the 2nd game was from the 1st. it was like an x-files filler episode

When it comes to Bioware, people seem to confuse character interactions with good writing. Writing in Bioware games has always been serviceable at best. Mass Effect 2 did have that problem, even when you went to 3 and most C&C called back to 1, but Dragon Age 2 has a lot of impact in Inquisition. It does remember your choices and the main plot events. And, to be fair, there's seem to be a feeling that DA2's kinda comic bookish, compact storytelling became too blurry and boring in Inquisition, which is something I agree with. Inquisition is too cold, prim and proper. But yeah, that was mostly a problem with Mass Effect.

 

[cvv]

Writing in Bioware games has always been serviceable at best

Compared to what, exactly?

Dickens? Sure. The rest of the industry tho...

 

[Cat Headed Eagle]

Writing in Bioware games has always been serviceable at best

Compared to what, exactly?

Dickens? Sure. The rest of the industry tho...

Why are you comparing writing in videogames to 19th century novels? I get they used Dickens as an inspiration for the plight of the urban elves in DA:O, but this is just a videogame series. Different time, different standards, different meaning.

 

[LarryTyphoid]

Compared to what, exactly?

Dickens? Sure. The rest of the industry tho...

BioWare's Sonic the Hedgehog RPG had worse writing than the mainline Sonic games, and that is saying something.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Yea but these two statements do not connect at all. They're, like, two different things.

The first is "writers used to be competent and now every dumb cunt can be a writer".

And the second: "Bioware used to value their writers and became famous because of them and now EA thinks writers aren't important."

How the fuck do these two relate?

They relate a lot.

BioWare started thinking anyone can write and it's super easy. Hence, anyone could become a writer and now their writing is dogshit because they treat it as if anyone can write and it's not a big deal.

That's common with most games now and writing is usually the first place where diversity hires end up to.

A bad coder can fuck up development pretty badly but "anybody can be a writer" so if you have to hire a bunch of women or some shit to fill up a quota you can just hire a bunch of "writers" and who cares if they are shit at it.

 

[Hammer Of The Heretics]

The consequences of bad code are hard to evade. If your game crashes, or softlocks, or renders garbage to the screen, or plays at 5 frames per second, you can't just dismiss that as an opinion. But the consequences of bad writing are easier to mask with appeals to subjectivism. "The writing is fine, you just don't get it."

 

[cvv]

The consequences of bad code are hard to evade. If your game crashes, or softlocks, or renders garbage to the screen, or plays at 5 frames per second, you can't just dismiss that as an opinion. But the consequences of bad writing are easier to mask with appeals to subjectivism. "The writing is fine, you just don't get it."

100% this.

Plus vast majority of people can't tell bad writing from their dick cheese but nobody fails to notice infinite loading.

 

[Orud]

Plus vast majority of people can't tell bad writing from their dick cheese but nobody fails to notice infinite loading.

Even worse, and I've already said this plenty of times before, if you're a terrible writer you can just go to social media for constant validation by selecting or creating your own echo-chamber.

 

[Spike]

I went on two dates with a friend's sister and her favorite game was Dragon Age: Inquisition. No wonder it didn't work out...Also, in reference to the thread title, more like David Gaydar.

 

[Tyranicon]

But the consequences of bad writing are easier to mask with appeals to subjectivism. "The writing is fine, you just don't get it."

"Dragon Age Inquisition has good writing bro. Such memorable characters."
"DOS2 has good writing bro. Such memorable characters."
"BG3 has good writing bro. Such memorable characters."

 

[Orud]

(Older) Bioware games had good story-structure and worldbuilding, but terrible dialogue. In Andromeda, and specifically Anthem, they decided to toss their narrative strengths under a buss for something 'different' simply because it was 'different''. The results were disastrous.

edit: David Gaider has even openly spoken about this, how his idea's and stories were regarded as 'boring' and unwanted for Anthem. It goes back to what I said on the first page: people that don't even know the '3-act structure' telling other people, who's job it is to write, to do something 'different' but can't even tell you a direction to go in.

 

[Bulo]

Having heard Gaider's original (and admittedly unformed) motivation for the Reapers, I think it's safe to say that Mass Effect was never going to end especially well. Something about Element Zero/the Mass Effect harming the universe with overuse? One of those meaningless mechanical contrivances that Sci-Fi writers cannot help but lean on. It would have been more impactful to find out that they had no motivation at all, that they were just bygone bastards.

 

[Cohesion]

I went on two dates with a friend's sister and her favorite game was Dragon Age: Inquisition. No wonder it didn't work out...Also, in reference to the thread title, more like David Gaydar.

You should show her Underrail, Might & Magic series, Fallout 1/2, etc and then fuck her and convert to our cause.
Or at least DA: Origins.

 

[Orud]

That was Drew Karpyshyn, not Gaider you're talking about. Very little of his notes were eventually used for the sequels.

The problem with the reapers is that Mac Walters/Casey Hudson were so creatively bankrupt that :

• They tried to explain the reaper's reasoning. Even worse is that they tried using human reasoning.
• Transformed the reapers into enemies that Citadel races can fight toe-to-toe, ship to ship.

They should've either pivoted away from the reapers after ME1, or kept their omnipotent status.

 

[Bulo]

That was Drew Karpyshyn, not Gaider you're talking about.

That's even sadder. Between the two, I always held Karpyshyn in higher esteem. Alas, Canadians

 

[Akachi]

They copied Reapers whole cloth from the Revelation Space novels, so I don't get why they didn't just copy their motive from them too, where the Reaper-equivalents kill all advanced life in the Milky Way because they are engineering the galaxy to survive collision with Andromeda in billions of years and don't want any interference. Not perfect, but way better idea than anything they tried to come up with on their own.

 

[Roguey]

That was Drew Karpyshyn, not Gaider you're talking about.

That's even sadder. Between the two, I always held Karpyshyn in higher esteem. Alas, Canadians

Did you read Revan? The guy took a massive shit all over Chris Avellone's kotor 2 and reacted with smug indignation when people criticized him for it.

 

[430am]

I have always openly and vocally resented bioware writers.

 

[Roguey]

Hace El Oso https://drewkarpyshyn.com/c/?p=302

Now, on to the novel. Don’t worry, the release date of the game hasn’t impacted the novel’s release. Revan is still coming out on November 15 in hardcover, digital and audiobook format. However, some people have gotten a sneak peek at the manuscript (don’t ask me how, because I dont’ know… it just happens.) One of these people felt that the novel attempted to retcon elements of KOTOR 2: The Sith Lords, so this individual posted a list of complaints on a message board and urged other members of the forum to e-mail me to complain.


That’s right. They started e-mailing me to complain about a book they hadn’t read based on out of context snippets and misleading statements posted by somebody else on a message board. Now, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But without actually reading the book, you can’t have a very informed opinion of it. Even if you read a summary or trust the person posting snippets, you still get an incredibly distorted view.


Let me illustrate with an example using spoilers from the original KOTOR. Skip ahead to the next paragraph f you still haven’t played this game, but since we’re over 5 years from its release I think the spoiler limit has expired. Here is an accurate description of the KOTOR “twist” out of context: you have amnesia, and it turns out you’re the bad guy all along. Taken in that fasion, it sounds really, really dumb. In fact, when we first started pitching KOTOR’s plot to people, they talked about how dumb, predictable and cliche it was. Most people thought the twist was lame. Why? Because they heard it out of context. There was no build up. No nuance. No subtlety. The twist was only a small part of the entire experience, and it worked with many other facets to evoke a powerful reaction. Most people who played the game feel that KOTOR’s story and the twist represent a watershed moment in video game writing and story telling… but if you heard that twist before and decided it was stupid, you would have ruined much of the KOTOR experience for yourself. So, please, before you decide the book sucks, at least have the decency to read it for yourself. Try to keep an open mind and you might be surprised.


Of course, this doesn’t address the concerns of the original poster, who did (or at least claimed to) read the novel. He (or she, but we’ll assume “he” for ease of writing) felt that I had retconned characters and events from KOTOR 2, and that I had committed some horrific crime by “ruining” another author’s work.


I heard the same arguments about my Darth Bane novel. A small but very vocal segment of fans felt I had somehow disrespected the Jedi vs Sith comics by “needlessly” changing certain things when I wrote the book. Obviously they are entitled to their opinion, and I doubt anything I can say will change their minds. But I do think they are blowing things way out of proportion. I can’t really present a specific point-by-point argument using examples from Revan, because it’s not officially released. Once it’s out, I may address some of these concerns and explain why I feel they have been misrepresented. But I can give some examples from the Bane novel to illustrate my point.


Let’s look at the Farfalla character from the Bane novels. In the comic he is a Satyr-like character with goat legs. In the novel, I never mention goat legs. I don’t specifically say he has human legs, but most readers would probably make that assumption. So why did I do that? Simple – for the story I was telling, Farfalla represented the “normal” Jedi; his goat legs made it harder to see him in that role. So I intentionally omitted that aspect of his character so as not to undermine the experience of the novel. That doesn’t mean I was trying to retcon what had come before; just because I don’t draw attention to it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist or that it never happened. It just means it isn’t integral to understanding the story I am telling. If you already know about the goat legs, then I don’t need to tell you. If you don’t know, there’s no reason to mention it now and muddle things up. Same thing with the Revan novel. There are past events or elements/aspects of certain characters that I do not specifically call attention to or dwell on because they are not part of this story… they belong in the Sith Lords’ story. But just because I don’t go out of my way to mention something specifically doesn’t mean I’m retconning it. If you’re familiar with a character or event, you already know that information and I don’t need to bring it up unless it’s relevant to the current story.


Other times very minor details might be altered or changed. Sometimes this is a mistake (I do make them), but other times it’s to make things flow better, or to bring different works (video games, novels, comics, films) into one cohesive whole. Some people are horribly offended by this. Fair enough. But maintaining a cohesive continuity in Star Wars is a messy, complicated business. There are times when various story lines and time lines have to be brought together, and sometimes they just don’t mesh quite right without a little tweaking. As an author I try to make the changes that are as minimally invasive and as respectful to the original work as possible, but I also have to balance the needs of whatever project I have been hired to work on so that the product I’m making can be the best it can be. Obviously people won’t always agree on what is “minimally invasive”; fortunately I don’t make that final call. If I step over the line, there are folks at Lucas who tell me what I can or cannot do. But most of the time I’m very careful not to cross that line.


I’ll admit, I didn’t consult with the Obsidian writers before including the Exile in the novel. They didn’t consult with me before including Canderous and HK-47 in KOTOR 2. And I didn’t expect them to – that’s not how it works, and it would be virtually impossible to get anything done in the Star Wars universe if it did. Too many projects, too many contributors.


Here’s how it does work: Obsidian doesn’t own the Exile. Neither do I. Lucas (the corporation) does – she’s a part of Star Wars. My only options were to bring her into the fold by doing as much research as possible and doing my best to give a fair and accurate representation of her in the novel, or to ignore her completely and pretend she never existed. I think option A is far more preferable (and more respectful) than option B.


In a shared fiction world it’s inevitable that some characters are going to get multiple treatments from various authors. Earlier events are going to be referenced, and sometimes the small details aren’t going to match up exactly as fans want or expect. Like it or not, that’s a fact. If you don’t like it, there’s not much I can do to change your mind. But I hope you’ll keep this in perspective and understand that most authors (including me) do their damnedest NOT to mess up other people’s stuff… and the e-mails I get accusing me of willfully changing things for no reason are ridiculous and offensive.


They’re also filled with f-bombs and profane descriptions of what I should do with my sexual organs, but unfortunately that’s just the norm for the internet. Remember the “Triple A” formula: Anonymity + Audience = Asshole. Still, it strikes me as odd that they would even bother to send me these e-mails. Do they expect me to read their profanity-laced venom and go, “Hey, they’re totally right – stop the printing and let’s redo the book that’s already in production because a handful of foul-mouthed jerks are spamming me!” Probably not. The only explanation I can figure is that they feel angry, and venting on a forum isn’t enough. They have to personally attack someone, because the only way they can feel better is by trying to make someone else feel worse. Sadly, that’s all too common in our society today.


I could respond with swears, curses and angry rebuttals, but I’ll take the high road. Actually, the high road would be not mentioning it at all, so I guess I’m taking the middle road by ranting on my personal website. But in the end it’s a small price to pay for the privilege of being able to write novels set in the Star Wars universe, and I know for every jerk who fires off an angry e-mail, there are a hundred (or a thousand, or hopefully even ten thousand) folks who appreciate what I do.


So, to the Star Wars, Mass Effect and Drew Karpyshyn fans out there who aren’t haters, thanks for listening. And to the haters: you know that thing you told me to do to myself in that nasty e-mail? Right back at you. Twice.

 

[Hace El Oso]

Roguey Exactly what I was hoping for, thank you very much.

 

[Sunsetspawn]

lol

Spoiler

 

[Spike]

I went on two dates with a friend's sister and her favorite game was Dragon Age: Inquisition. No wonder it didn't work out...Also, in reference to the thread title, more like David Gaydar.

You should show her Underrail, Might & Magic series, Fallout 1/2, etc and then fuck her and convert to our cause.
Or at least DA: Origins.

Sadly we didn't really click that much so it ended after 2 dates. She's cute though. Also wouldn't le fugg her because I'm (waiting until marriage). I think I threw in some RPGs though to play. Also she didn't understand how I was perplexed by this guy flying his Italian flag higher than the American one. That is illegal in Burgerstand, you can't even fly a Catholic flag higher than an American one. So I don't know what this wop was thinking and when I called him out to her she gave me the typical womanly "erm what is the problem? he is just doing his thing." I'm part wop too in case any pastapeople get triggered. I said no, I know for a fact that is literally illegal so I am just curious about it is all. I kind of made fun of him and she wasn't having it. Got womeme'd again. Cool person though.