Wizardry Did D.W. Bradley ruin the Wizardry series?

[LarryTyphoid]

The classic Wizardry formula created for Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord has the player's party going on expeditions into a dungeon, expending their limited resources to explore and survive enemy encounters, and leaving the dungeon when those resources need to be replenished. As the party members' skills and equipment improves, expeditions into the dungeon become longer and the party dives deeper to the lower floors. Attrition is the name of the game, and realizing when to push forward and when to retreat is the difference between going home with buckets of loot or experience and getting your entire party killed.

Wizardry 6 and its sequels got rid of the original formula in favor of having the entire game set inside a first-person dungeon. As a result, attrition is much less of an issue. The player's party can rest at any time in the dungeon to restore health and spell points. It doesn't feel like you have to prepare and set out on an expedition like original Wizardry, but more like you're just exploring a world as in other RPGs. So was it really right to so fundamentally change the structure of Wizardry in this way? Games that stick to the original formula are often accused of being simple Wizardry 1 clones, and that D.W. Bradley's evolution of the series was necessary to prevent it from becoming stale, but didn't the original formula have lots of room to expand without abandoning it altogether? I haven't played Elminage Gothic past the first dungeon, but I still don't think it can rightly be called a "clone" of Wizardry 1.

Note that I've only barely played Wiz6 and can't say whether I fall on one side or another, but I've been interested in this topic since I heard Japanese Wizardry purists criticize Wiz6/7 and Grimoire, and I'd like to hear how hardcore fans of those games respond.

 

[Vic]

I'm having sex with your mother.

 

[smaug]

Wizardry 6/7 are shit. Come at me mondblut

8 is where it gets interesting. Five from what I read/seen is basically the same as 1-3 with some additional mechanics (and some new dungeon design novelties that Bradley liked). But it’s probably similar enough.

I wouldn’t say he ruined it but just changed its design which is fine because moar of the same would get boring, especially after a decade. Without the addition of 8, I feel violated by this poll.

 

[smaug]

Also, didn’t Andrew quit the franchise after 4 anyway and simply wanted Bradley to make 5 to see if he could succeed as the main programmer anyhow? If this was the case, wizardry was never really going to go anywhere regardless

 

[smaug]

Wait, IIRC Knights of Diamond and Legacy of Ligaments did not even have any new mechanical changes or additions aside from just a different dungeon? If this is the case, then 2-3 might as well not even be considered.

 

[Butter]

8 is where it gets interesting. Five from what I read/seen is basically the same as 1-3 with some additional mechanics (and some new dungeon design novelties that Bradley liked). But it’s probably similar enough.

Thank you for sharing your informed opinion.

8 is actually where the series shits itself and abandons just about everything that was great about 1-5 AND 6-7 all at the same time. Kind of impressive feat actually.

 

[LarryTyphoid]

Without the addition of 8, I feel violated by this poll.

From what I know, Wiz8 just follows the formula of Wiz6/7 in that it doesn't have the town/dungeon thing from the original games. I hear that even in the "towns" of Wiz8, there's a bunch of random encounters all over the place.

 

[octavius]

A change was needed after Wiz5 which still had wireframe graphics seven years after Wiz1.

 

[luj1]

Wizardry 6 and its sequels got rid of the original formula

Ironically Wiz 6-8 are the best games in the series

 

[Lady Error]

Wiz 1-5, Wiz 6/7 and Wiz 8 are different enough from each other, so that people usually like only one of those three.

Personally, Wiz 6/7 is my favorite and I cannot into either Wiz 1-5 or Wiz 8.

I suppose that Wiz 1-5 are supposed to create a similar dream-like state as Wiz 6/7 by "filling in the blanks" with imagination. But the wireframe graphics just do not work for me in that regard, while the "abstract" graphics in Wiz 6/7 work perfectly for that.

 

[luj1]

Wiz 1 remake (Lylgamyn Saga) is cool

 

[vitellus]

Wizardry 6/7 are shit. Come at me mondblut

8 is where it gets interesting. Five from what I read/seen is basically the same as 1-3 with some additional mechanics (and some new dungeon design novelties that Bradley liked). But it’s probably similar enough.

I wouldn’t say he ruined it but just changed its design which is fine because moar of the same would get boring, especially after a decade. Without the addition of 8, I feel violated by this poll.

in regards to 1-4,proving grounds would be released as a stand alone game followed by $15-$25 dlc.

like so

8 is such a different beast it feels like a totally different game than, you know, the preceeding seven other entries.

even 6/7 have a different feel than the five before them regardless of graphical updates. tile/grid based movement > continuous

 

[puur prutswerk]

Wiz 1-5, Wiz 6/7 and Wiz 8 are different enough from each other, so that people usually like only one of those three.

Personally, Wiz 6/7 is my favorite and I cannot into either Wiz 1-5 or Wiz 8.

I suppose that Wiz 1-5 are supposed to create a similar dream-like state as Wiz 6/7 by "filling in the blanks" with imagination. But the wireframe graphics just do not work for me in that regard, while the "abstract" graphics in Wiz 6/7 work perfectly for that.

I can't fill in the blanks with imagination in blobbers because I end up with horrible nightmares.

Also i lost my imagination on my 25th birthday. It has been getting a little easier to visually imagine again sometimes, but it's a bitch to live like this.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

The wizardry on steam: Five Ordeals; does it follow the classic wizardry formula or is there saving and resting in dungeons along with sone other modern jibber-jabber? I’ve toyed with the idea of getting it and seeing if anyone used the construction set to again remake the classics (or even the gameboy entries).

 

[LarryTyphoid]

A change was needed after Wiz5 which still had wireframe graphics seven years after Wiz1.

What do the graphics have to do with it? The Japanese Wizardry games, including the remakes of Wiz 1-5, have full graphics and visuals without needing to change the basic structure of the game as Wiz6 did.

I'd like to hear ways Wizardry 6 improved upon the original formula in terms of design, and not in terms of technology. After all, Wizardry 6 and 7 are still graphically poor compared to their contemporaries.

Personally, Wiz 6/7 is my favorite and I cannot into either Wiz 1-5 or Wiz 8.

I suppose that Wiz 1-5 are supposed to create a similar dream-like state as Wiz 6/7 by "filling in the blanks" with imagination. But the wireframe graphics just do not work for me in that regard, while the "abstract" graphics in Wiz 6/7 work perfectly for that.

Can you not get into Wiz 1-5 because of the graphics? If so, why not play the graphically enhanced remakes?

The wizardry on steam: Five Ordeals; does it follow the classic wizardry formula or is there saving and resting in dungeons along with sone other modern jibber-jabber?

It's the original formula, as is typical for Japanese Wizardry games.

 

[Latro]

Silly dichotomy imo. Americans don’t give two figs about classic dungeon crawling, so the divergence ended up working out. The Bradley games are an interesting and original spin on the formula

 

[Lady Error]

Can you not get into Wiz 1-5 because of the graphics? If so, why not play the graphically enhanced remakes?

Didn't get around to it yet. The antiquated "get back to the beginning to rest" is kind of off-putting for me as well, as well as being in just one dungeon.

I kind of enjoyed "Dark Spire" on the DS, which is basically a JRPG with Western graphics. But couldn't get into "Elminage Gothic" due to lack of variety - just combat in a huge dungeon basically.

 

[mondblut]

Wizardry 6/7 are shit. Come at me mondblut

8 is where it gets interesting.

You have no soul.

 

[mondblut]

I'd like to hear ways Wizardry 6 improved upon the original formula in terms of design, and not in terms of technology.

Wizardry 6 feels like adventure. Previous Wizardries feel like a back-breaking job.

 

[mondblut]

It doesn't feel like you have to prepare and set out on an expedition like original Wizardry, but more like you're just exploring a world as in other RPGs.

This is correct, and it's a welcome change. The Oubliette type of design should have stayed back in 1980, when 4kb RAM was a pinnacle of technology.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

You’ve never played dungeons of Magdarr I bet. Wizardry is older yet more complex and easier to create a party. 1-3 always felt like just one game in a way or rather 2-3 would be like DLC today. 4 was damn original and 5 felt like the original but bigger and more options. I don’t know why ai felt that 6 reminded me of Dungeon Master but it did (I acquired sometimes late compared to releases but I’d get like-looking games when I did. I played Wizards & Warriors before 7-8 so, they felt far different. It didn’t help I couldn’t play 8 until I pirated a copy because I had doubles of the same discs in my box missing 1/2 the discs (total machine boxing fuck up I guess or an idiot on the assembly line).

 

[KainenMorden]

Wiz 1-5, Wiz 6/7 and Wiz 8 are different enough from each other, so that people usually like only one of those three.

Personally, Wiz 6/7 is my favorite and I cannot into either Wiz 1-5 or Wiz 8.

I suppose that Wiz 1-5 are supposed to create a similar dream-like state as Wiz 6/7 by "filling in the blanks" with imagination. But the wireframe graphics just do not work for me in that regard, while the "abstract" graphics in Wiz 6/7 work perfectly for that.

I can't fill in the blanks with imagination in blobbers because I end up with horrible nightmares.

Also i lost my imagination on my 25th birthday. It has been getting a little easier to visually imagine again sometimes, but it's a bitch to live like this.

Ummm what do you mean by this? Care to explain?

 

[TheDeveloperDude]

These are different game series:
Wiz1-5
Wiz6-8
Japanese Wizardry clones.

No worse and better.

 

[puur prutswerk]

Wiz 1-5, Wiz 6/7 and Wiz 8 are different enough from each other, so that people usually like only one of those three.

Personally, Wiz 6/7 is my favorite and I cannot into either Wiz 1-5 or Wiz 8.

I suppose that Wiz 1-5 are supposed to create a similar dream-like state as Wiz 6/7 by "filling in the blanks" with imagination. But the wireframe graphics just do not work for me in that regard, while the "abstract" graphics in Wiz 6/7 work perfectly for that.

I can't fill in the blanks with imagination in blobbers because I end up with horrible nightmares.

Also i lost my imagination on my 25th birthday. It has been getting a little easier to visually imagine again sometimes, but it's a bitch to live like this.

Ummm what do you mean by this? Care to explain?

The blobber thing was referencing the living mounds of player party that lash out at whoever (understandably) attacks them/it as if it were in some cheap Japanese Super Heroine Tentacle Insult movie.

You can hardly blame any adversaries in any blobber for attacking the "blob", although they are of course usually in the wrong.

My 25th birthday is a horrible story that I will not go into detail about now.

 

[vitellus]

The wizardry on steam: Five Ordeals; does it follow the classic wizardry formula or is there saving and resting in dungeons along with sone other modern jibber-jabber? I’ve toyed with the idea of getting it and seeing if anyone used the construction set to again remake the classics (or even the gameboy entries).

it plays pretty straight forward like proving grounds. it gave me that sweet first-few-jaunts-being-deadly ass-puckering heart thudding feel that i enjoy while trying not to lose a party with a lord and a bishop.

there is no resting in the dungeon, just as it should be, half the time your enemy is classic unknowns like '5 little humanoids' and so forth that only reveal themselves on the second or third round. i am a cheap fuck and can't convince myself to drop $30 on it, let alone the one $25 and the other $15 dlc.

is it worth the money? almost assuredly, but again, i'm cheap lol