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DOOM Eternal - the sequel to the 2016 reboot - now with The Ancient Gods DLC

Zboj Lamignat

Arcane
Joined
Feb 15, 2012
Messages
5,609
I won't lie, Doom becoming a story driven action platformer is a rather surprising development.

And that's after adjusting for the fact that it's 2020.
 

Citizen

Guest
Platforming in a FPS is fake and gay.

If the platforming sections don't feel shoehorned in, but the core gameplay is actually based around them, the result can be great. Once again, see turok 1-2. They have very intense platforming puzzles that require you to git gud, and the shooting is seamlessly merged with them.

Still,
It feels kinda out of place in a doom game tho
 

OctavianRomulus

Learned
Joined
Aug 21, 2019
Messages
480
The thing with nuDoom and Eternal is that it's designed from the ground up for arena combat, which means it's shifted from long-term to short-term resource management. In olDoom, levels had a constant tension to them because every hit you took and every shot you fired mattered when the amount of medkits and ammo in a level were finite, and you wouldn't know your first time around where the items were or if there were any at all. Exploration and combat were tightly intertwined. In nu/Eternal, every enemy is a potential medkit/ammo pickup (to make extended fighting in arenas tenable and give the player a reason to move away from islands of items that would be their only means of regaining HP otherwise), so the dynamic of tense exploration can no longer apply.

Because item pick-ups are no longer worthy rewards for exploration when you have Glory Kills and such to regain resources, the only long-term rewards the game can offer is through upgrade points to permanently upgrade yourself. Because the combat in nu/Eternal can only get any tense in locked-off circular arenas (since you could just S+M1 your way through otherwise like in many olDoom levels), everything inbetween arenas is just downtime, one consequence being that the exploration segments were boring as hell as you would only every fight a small amount of enemies in them. I think the game should have removed exploration entirely in favor of non-stop back-to-back arenas with some occasional cutscene breaks, though I guess that's a minority opinion. In Eternal id's solution to this problem seems to be MOAR PLATFORMING. You could go back to old-school resource management and level design, but in the process you'd have to change everything what makes nuDoom unique to make it actually work. And since there's enough custom olDoom content to keep me occupied for a century, I'm in no hurry for a new Doom game that does what olDoom does but slightly different.

Great point about long term versus short term. I'm not a diehard purist so I think it should be a combination, maybe 50/50. I like the old system a lot but in very long and difficult WADs it can be draining. Ideally, GKs should always give you a fighting chance and keep you alive until the next pickup.

I disagree about platforming not killing you. I've always thought that Doom and Mario had a strange connection due to the importance of movement and it seems the developers acknowledge this as well. Imagine what Mario would be like if you didn't die when you fell. To some extent I understand why they did it but at least they should take away a life from you. As for Argent Tower, I thought it was very well designed. The first time I went through it, I never died. I DID die in it in a couple of Ultra Nightmare playthroughs (which was very painful). If you are correct and the platforming ends up being more boring that it seems to me then you have a point.

I also disagree about areas between arenas in 2016. To me it was one of the highlights of the game was the meaningful exploration (especially early on). For me, finding interconnected areas like that yellow keycard secret in the second level or the entirety of Foundry is one of my favorite things to do in a Doom game. In all Doom games, I love the downtime to do some exploration. It is for this reason why I want GKs to be toned down a bit in favor of the old system: so they can make pickup secrets more meaningful. They mentioned they are taking steps to reimplement modding. If true, I will definitely make my own balance mod at some point. Aside from this, there were some really cool incidental combat moments that I really enjoyed.

In Foundry, there are a couple of Hell Knights that spawn quite far way from you after you do specific things. On one of my first Ultra Nightmare playthroughs I totally forgot about one of them so I go into the small area before the final arena, getting ready for it, when all of a sudden I hear hoofsteps far away. They get louder and louder and suddenly the big door behind me opens, revealing a Hell Knight. I didn't have full health, no chainsaw ammo left, and and no plasma ammo to stun it so it bitch slapped me and stomped on my face. It was honestly one of the scariest and Doomiest moments I've had in a game. It was so unexpected. It also worked in part because GKs are less powerful early on in the game and in Ultra Nightmare, each pickup makes the difference between life and death. I really hope there are more moments like this in Eternal.
 

DalekFlay

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Oct 5, 2010
Messages
14,118
Location
New Vegas
I won't lie, Doom becoming a story driven action platformer is a rather surprising development.

2016 had more story than people act like. It definitely had less story than the average FPS nowadays, and had that iconic moment where he kind of told the story to fuck off, but there's still quite a few cutscenes and a loooooot of dialog in it. Given the released video is touting the story, I don't think it means there will be more of it really. I'd guess they shot for the same average? We'll see.

The platforming/air stuff... I'll reserve judgment. I maintain that in these long franchises you have to shake things up, not just be the same games over and over again. If they manage to make Doom 2016 combat feel fluid in the air with some non-frustrating platforming, it could be really cool. Bioshock Infinite's best moments were when you used the rails and airtime for interesting combat moments.
 

OctavianRomulus

Learned
Joined
Aug 21, 2019
Messages
480
Durandal

That is just completely fucking nuts. I have seen defrag before but not like this. Also, who makes these crazy maps?? They should just use the Quake 3 engine to make a new game out of this.
 

DJOGamer PT

Arcane
Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Messages
7,645
Location
Lusitânia
I won't lie, Doom becoming a story driven action platformer is a rather surprising development.

:notsureifserious:

Just because a game has a premise and cutscenes doesn't make it story driven.
All japanese action games have a plot, flavour texts and loads of cutscenes and they are far from being story driven.
A story driven game means that the plot is the central, most important aspect and all other elements of the game are bound to it.
 

Durandal

Arcane
Joined
May 13, 2015
Messages
2,117
Location
New Eden
My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
Durandal

That is just completely fucking nuts. I have seen defrag before but not like this. Also, who makes these crazy maps?? They should just use the Quake 3 engine to make a new game out of this.
The DeFRaG community is surprisingly sizable, and holds a World Cup contest each year where they make new maps people have one week to find the most optimized route for. There's already so many maps for DeFRaG of so many different styles that it's its own game already.
 

OctavianRomulus

Learned
Joined
Aug 21, 2019
Messages
480
All this tech talk makes me very sad Bethesda won't licence the engine. It will probably never be open source either. They clearly have very special tech on their hands and I want to get my grubby mitts on it!
 

JDR13

Arcane
Joined
Nov 2, 2006
Messages
3,963
Location
The Swamp
I also disagree about areas between arenas in 2016. To me it was one of the highlights of the game was the meaningful exploration (especially early on). For me, finding interconnected areas like that yellow keycard secret in the second level or the entirety of Foundry is one of my favorite things to do in a Doom game. In all Doom games, I love the downtime to do some exploration. It is for this reason why I want GKs to be toned down a bit in favor of the old system: so they can make pickup secrets more meaningful. They mentioned they are taking steps to reimplement modding. If true, I will definitely make my own balance mod at some point. Aside from this, there were some really cool incidental combat moments that I really enjoyed.

The arena style placement of foes had the opposite effect for me in regards to exploration. I thought it felt weird that you could walk around some levels and not be attacked at all for significant periods of time. Exploration would have been more meaningful if the enemies had been distributed in a realistic way rather than mostly confined to pocket areas.
 

OctavianRomulus

Learned
Joined
Aug 21, 2019
Messages
480
I also disagree about areas between arenas in 2016. To me it was one of the highlights of the game was the meaningful exploration (especially early on). For me, finding interconnected areas like that yellow keycard secret in the second level or the entirety of Foundry is one of my favorite things to do in a Doom game. In all Doom games, I love the downtime to do some exploration. It is for this reason why I want GKs to be toned down a bit in favor of the old system: so they can make pickup secrets more meaningful. They mentioned they are taking steps to reimplement modding. If true, I will definitely make my own balance mod at some point. Aside from this, there were some really cool incidental combat moments that I really enjoyed.

The arena style placement of foes had the opposite effect for me in regards to exploration. I thought it felt weird that you could walk around some levels and not be attacked at all for significant periods of time. Exploration would have been more meaningful if the enemies had been distributed in a realistic way rather than mostly confined to pocket areas.

This might be rather subjective but I kind of like this kind of design and this is usually how I design some of my own maps, and I started doing that before Doom 2016 even came out. I like having quiet, tense moments full of exploration and interconnected areas and a few monsters here and there, punctuated by intense fights. I realize that this might not be the default Doom experience but I like it.

It's not like the fights between arenas were not there at all. A lot of them were quite good, like those two hell knights I mentioned. Level 4 has a few great ones too. But for the most part I do agree that they were rather lackluster. They have acknowledged this and whether they succeed or not remains to be seen.
 

Jezal_k23

Guest
In Foundry, there are a couple of Hell Knights that spawn quite far way from you after you do specific things.

God that was such a beautiful dick move. I stumbled upon an extra unaccounted for hell knight myself in that level in my recent nightmare playthrough and I very nearly died as a result. I wish they did this kind of thing more frequently.
 

OctavianRomulus

Learned
Joined
Aug 21, 2019
Messages
480
In Foundry, there are a couple of Hell Knights that spawn quite far way from you after you do specific things.

God that was such a beautiful dick move. I stumbled upon an extra unaccounted for hell knight myself in that level in my recent nightmare playthrough and I very nearly died as a result. I wish they did this kind of thing more frequently.

You could make a really great horror game with this kind of AI. These fuckers will run after you across the whole map if you try to run away. When I played RE2 Remake the Tyrant instantly reminded me of this little event.
 

Silly Germans

Guest
I dislike dashes, they make combat to easy. Just hit the dash button one sec before you are hit and you'll
be fine. Coupled with slow projectiles it takes away any challenge. Shadow Warrior 2 and Rage 2 had the
same problem. They are way to easy even on the hardest difficulty. I know that the mobility feels good in
the beginning but after a while its just dull if you enter every battle with full health and leave every battle
with full health. Which is a shame since the shooting gameplay is otherwise probably going to be fine.
 

Jezal_k23

Guest
This has been addressed in the podcast:



I'm not guaranteeing that these problems will not arise at all, but the problems introduced by dash and meathook have been mentioned, so they're aware of this possibility, and Hugo Martin says they were forced to rebalance the game to account for Doomguy having these abilities now.
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
57,132
If the platforming sections don't feel shoehorned in, but the core gameplay is actually based around them, the result can be great.

Right.

It's not a question of platforming itself, it's that way it is implemented here seems to provide no actual gameplay challenge, it's just for show, like the glory kills.
 

JDR13

Arcane
Joined
Nov 2, 2006
Messages
3,963
Location
The Swamp
In Foundry, there are a couple of Hell Knights that spawn quite far way from you after you do specific things.

God that was such a beautiful dick move. I stumbled upon an extra unaccounted for hell knight myself in that level in my recent nightmare playthrough and I very nearly died as a result. I wish they did this kind of thing more frequently.

They did that quite a bit in Doom 1&2. I remember how I'd cross a threshold and hear that teleportation sound in the distance and instantly start wondering what and where the ambush was.
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
57,132
A gameplay video made by someone who doesn't actually suck, using a controller no less:



Fucking IGN lmao.

I'll concede this does look an improvement from Doom 2016 but it's basically the same game. No level design for us boomers.
 

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