Fallout 3: get your skills out of my FPS

[Araanor]

A minor correction about Bloodlines combat system: high skill doesn't increase your damage directly, it gives a bonus to the weapon's Lethality. This makes your attacks harder to resist. If your Ranged feat is low you'll have lots of trouble fighting supernaturals and characters with high Defense.

That's not my impression.

Weapons have a damage stat. Depending on "how good" your hit is, you get a percentage of that damage inflicted. Skill makes it easier, range makes it harder, weapon range modifies how hard it is at a distance.

Lethality is.. well, should pierce through armor and vampires easier I guess.

 

[SmokedWolf]

It seems that the best arpg aiming system would be stolen from gta then given stats.

 

[Wyrmlord]

I liked Bloodlines ranged combat system. Its brilliant design was proven by all those retarded reviewers who claimed that the firearms are useless. They are, if your skill is low.

I have heard similiarly asinine complaints about the Deus Ex combat system, where people said that the pistol aiming is terrible. Of course it will be if you don't put points in the right skill.

Though for the game's actual combat, I don't really recall any fun or interesting combat encounters in the game. Just plain bad.

 

[Emotional Vampire]

[genre] + RPG = shitty [genre] game.

"Put points in the skill nub"

How about you take a gun and shoot a dog? It's really not that fucking hard. And even trained Denton operates it like a paralytic.
Bloodlines was similiar. Guns are made to be ergonomical and deadly, and they sway as if you were holding Spazmo and are as deadly as... well, Spazmo.

 

[Kraszu]

I liked Bloodlines ranged combat system. Its brilliant design was proven by all those retarded reviewers who claimed that the firearms are useless. They are, if your skill is low.

I have heard similiarly asinine complaints about the Deus Ex combat system, where people said that the pistol aiming is terrible. Of course it will be if you don't put points in the right skill.

Though for the game's actual combat, I don't really recall any fun or interesting combat encounters in the game. Just plain bad.

Yes but sill you will be playing part of the game whit that aiming even if you plan to put there points in future. I would rather have system that would make progress meaningful and remove that. Aiming too good is also bad for gameplay.

 

[Norfleet]

They could have taken Deus Ex's system, but no... They had to go deeper into FPS territory. What a bunch of morons. Play testers my ass.

I dunno if Deus Ex's system can be considered all that. I mean, here you have a trained special operative. Who shoots worse than 6 year old. How did he even pass basic?

You know, every Shooter/RPG hybrid I've played always has disappointing combat. Or at least disappointing compared to if it was a shooter. Instead of getting more powerful as you gain exp, it just seems like you're slowly un-gimping yourself. To be honest I don't really know how to remove that feeling other than turning the game into a straight FPS or RPG.

The thing with RPGs is that you REALLY have to keep them abstract. When you drill down to the first person view and you can SEE through the eyes of the character, wretched, miserably pathetic failures become that much more apparent. You start realizing how pathetic the character really is, when a 6 year old is a better shot than your allegedly elite special operative. This is entirely a problem produced by establishing the "basic" competency level at "pathetic". Unless your character has some inexplicable reason why it's absolutely wretched at everything, you'd think he would have at least one ability he's actually GOOD at. As it stands, you have to wonder what kind of pathetic untermensch that the game's special forces are using as a recruiting pool.

I have heard similiarly asinine complaints about the Deus Ex combat system, where people said that the pistol aiming is terrible. Of course it will be if you don't put points in the right skill.

That's the problem: I shouldn't HAVE to put points in the skill to not be ABSOLUTELY AWFUL. The character is SUPPOSED to be a trained special operative! The qualifications for such a position *REQUIRE* basic pistol marksmanship. The character should NOT suck even if I DON'T advance his skills in that field above what would realistically be required to pass basic marksmanship qualifications! Because I have seen 6 year olds that shoot better than that.

 

[Shoelip]

Hm, that's an interesting point for two reasons. First off, it makes me think that the Fallout 3 style might actually have made some sense in Deus Ex, secondly, you character in Fallout 3 is actually supposed to be pathetic, having lived his whole life in a vault. So looks like they got it backwards.

 

[Kingston]

This game is such a mess. Seriously, the design is all over the place, there doesn't appear to be any focus. I liked the Bloodlines system fine or System Shock 2. What gives? Well, its not like that question needs answering.

 

[themadhatter114]

They could have taken Deus Ex's system, but no... They had to go deeper into FPS territory. What a bunch of morons. Play testers my ass.

I dunno if Deus Ex's system can be considered all that. I mean, here you have a trained special operative. Who shoots worse than 6 year old. How did he even pass basic?

You know, every Shooter/RPG hybrid I've played always has disappointing combat. Or at least disappointing compared to if it was a shooter. Instead of getting more powerful as you gain exp, it just seems like you're slowly un-gimping yourself. To be honest I don't really know how to remove that feeling other than turning the game into a straight FPS or RPG.

The thing with RPGs is that you REALLY have to keep them abstract. When you drill down to the first person view and you can SEE through the eyes of the character, wretched, miserably pathetic failures become that much more apparent. You start realizing how pathetic the character really is, when a 6 year old is a better shot than your allegedly elite special operative. This is entirely a problem produced by establishing the "basic" competency level at "pathetic". Unless your character has some inexplicable reason why it's absolutely wretched at everything, you'd think he would have at least one ability he's actually GOOD at. As it stands, you have to wonder what kind of pathetic untermensch that the game's special forces are using as a recruiting pool.

I have heard similiarly asinine complaints about the Deus Ex combat system, where people said that the pistol aiming is terrible. Of course it will be if you don't put points in the right skill.

That's the problem: I shouldn't HAVE to put points in the skill to not be ABSOLUTELY AWFUL. The character is SUPPOSED to be a trained special operative! The qualifications for such a position *REQUIRE* basic pistol marksmanship. The character should NOT suck even if I DON'T advance his skills in that field above what would realistically be required to pass basic marksmanship qualifications! Because I have seen 6 year olds that shoot better than that.

Don't your pistol skills automatically start at "Trained" in Deus Ex while every other skill in "Untrained?" I don't remember not being able to shoot a pistol for shit. I do remember not being able to shoot a rifle for shit, though. Plus you got free skill points to start so you could pick something else to be trained in. You were just an anti-terrorist agent, so you probably wouldn't be trained in much more than in kicking people's doors down, threatening women and children, and shooting pets.

 

[Zomg]

Being interested in the Bloodlines/Deus Ex/Mount and Blade system is not the same as wanting to replicate it at every level. You can have the "floor" be quite high - anyone should be able to fire a modern automatic pistol with good accuracy out to ten-twenty meters or more - with time to aim, firing from proper posture, etc. A master shooter could do the same an instant after drawing the weapon or at a dead sprint.

 

[themadhatter114]

Being interested in the Bloodlines/Deus Ex/Mount and Blade system is not the same as wanting to replicate it at every level. You can have the "floor" be quite high - anyone should be able to fire a modern automatic pistol with good accuracy out to ten-twenty meters or more - with time to aim, firing from proper posture, etc. A master shooter could do the same an instant after drawing the weapon or at a dead sprint.

Oh, absolutely. Especially any game where you are supposed to be some sort of government agent or military officer (Mass Effect was terrible in that regard) who can use most weapons reasonably well.

I am annoyed by systems (all of them, I think) that give bonus damage with increased weapon skill. It would be nice if you could upgrade accuracy with a skill and upgrade damage by buying different ammunition. Higher quality ammo would cost a good bit more and perhaps wouldn't be carried by the early game vendors, or perhaps you just wouldn't be able to afford much of it. It would be a good mix of economy and a character system.

 

[Norfleet]

Don't your pistol skills automatically start at "Trained" in Deus Ex while every other skill in "Untrained?" I don't remember not being able to shoot a pistol for shit.

Which only served to make it more laughably pathetic, yes. "Trained" in Deus Ex meant "slightly worse than a 6 year old". Because honestly, I shot better than that when I was 6. Otherwise my parents would had me flayed alive or something.

It's just amusing that a character can live for 18+ years and still not have a single usable skill in anything, which is generally the case in most RPGs. Name ONE RPG where you start out with an actual skill which doesn't suck pathetically. As far as I know, there isn't one. Your starting skill level is ALWAYS crap!

 

[DraQ]

This game is such a mess. Seriously, the design is all over the place, there doesn't appear to be any focus. I liked the Bloodlines system fine or System Shock 2. What gives? Well, its not like that question needs answering.

In SS2 skill system there was one of the most retarded restrictions ever - "Bzzt! You can't use a shotgun, your skill is too low, use your pistol instead.". I mean, what the bloody fuck? Does my cyborg guy not have drivers for shotgun installed which prevents him from being able to use it? Even running around through half of the game with aiming skill reminiscent of hungover parkinsoniac with taser stuck up his ass is infinitely better.

 

[Kraszu]

This game is such a mess. Seriously, the design is all over the place, there doesn't appear to be any focus. I liked the Bloodlines system fine or System Shock 2. What gives? Well, its not like that question needs answering.

In SS2 skill system there was one of the most retarded restrictions ever - "Bzzt! You can't use a shotgun, your skill is too low, use your pistol instead.". I mean, what the bloody fuck? Does my cyborg guy not have drivers for shotgun installed which prevents him from being able to use it? Even running around through half of the game with aiming skill reminiscent of hungover parkinsoniac with taser stuck up his ass is infinitely better.

I disagree it worked good gameplay wise, and that is most important. It would work best whit arcanum like system making it both less stupid, and better for gameplay.

 

[DraQ]

I disagree it worked good gameplay wise, and that is most important.

It doesn't change the fact that you were running around as a military guy incapable of using basic weapons. Hell, if you haven't pumped any point in your standard weapons skill, you couldn't even use a fucking pistol.