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Fallout Fallout 4 Thread

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Oblivion was made by a team of around 70 people. It was not even kind of what would be considered a AAA title unless you’re just using AAA as some stupid buzzword to mean every game released by a major publisher that was sold for the average retail price...which is kind of how some people seem to use it. It’s stupid to call Oblivion a AAA title when it’s coming out alongside games like Grand Theft Auto 4 and Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare. Nobody would say a movie that cost $100 million and a movie that cost $10 million fall into the same budgetary umbrella. You wouldn’t even say a $40 million or $50 million thing fell under the same budgetary umbrella as something that cost $10 million. Bethesda was not making big budget games until maybe Starfield. Fallout 4 had a team of around 100 people, Assassion’s Creed games at the same time had teams around 1,000 people. These two things do not occupy the same space.
 

Kev Inkline

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A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Fallout 4 had a team of around 100 people, Assassion’s Creed games at the same time had teams around 1,000 people. These two things do not occupy the same space.
Mobygames list FO4 credits with 1400 people, Assassin's Creed syndicate 3500. Even if you have to take the numbers with grain of salt, to me they clearly wrestle in the same weight class.
 

Zboj Lamignat

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Those numbers almost certainly include QA testers, certification folks, loc teams from all the locations where the game was localized, probably also separate marketing+publishing teams depending on how it was distributed and so on. Which is kinda besides the point, I don't see anything weird in calling beth games AAA. They were big stuff, adjusted for market size, even before Oblivion.
 
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Those numbers almost certainly include QA testers, certification folks, loc teams from all the locations where the game was localized, probably also separate marketing+publishing teams depending on how it was distributed and so on. Which is kinda besides the point, I don't see anything weird in calling beth games AAA. They were big stuff, adjusted for market size, even before Oblivion.

Only they weren’t big stuff. Their games sold well, but these games weren’t huge on the production side of things for their time. And they especially weren’t before Oblivion. Morrowind was around 40 people and was made by a Bethesda on the verge of going under. The original 1996 Resident Evil had a team almost double the size of Morrowind. The first Devil May Cry game has double the staff size of Morrowind. About as many people worked on the original 1991 Street Fighter 2 as worked on Morrowind.

Those credits also list every role a single voice actor does as its own unique credit for that count. Although it’s fairly easy to find Todd or someone from Bethesda saying: Fallout 4 had a development team of a little over 100 people. Which was not a huge team for a game coming out in 2015.

For a comparison, Final Fantasy 13 comes out in 2009 and had 200 people working on it at its peak. The game had more artist on the team than Fallout 4 had people developing Fallout 4.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
This argument about whether Bethesda counts as "true AAA" is kind of cringe, but very much agree with the assessment that they were a poorly run publisher.
 

Gargaune

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Oblivion was made by a team of around 70 people. It was not even kind of what would be considered a AAA title unless you’re just using AAA as some stupid buzzword to mean every game released by a major publisher that was sold for the average retail price...which is kind of how some people seem to use it. It’s stupid to call Oblivion a AAA title when it’s coming out alongside games like Grand Theft Auto 4 and Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare. Nobody would say a movie that cost $100 million and a movie that cost $10 million fall into the same budgetary umbrella. You wouldn’t even say a $40 million or $50 million thing fell under the same budgetary umbrella as something that cost $10 million. Bethesda was not making big budget games until maybe Starfield. Fallout 4 had a team of around 100 people, Assassion’s Creed games at the same time had teams around 1,000 people. These two things do not occupy the same space.
That's irrelevant, it makes no difference to me, as the consumer, whether you spend €5 million or €50 million if the end product looks like it offers that €50 million experience, a comparable scope and level of finish. As consumers, we're only interested in the development budget because it typically indicates the scope of the product on offer, but it's the latter that interests us, not the former in and of itself.

Kingdom Come: Deliverance was made for something like €15-20 million, by that definition is should be a "AA" title, and yet I see absolutely nothing in terms of what it offers that makes it a "budget" title compared to, I dunno, Skyrim or Deus Ex: Human Revolution. If Warhorse managed to achieve a similar grade of experience for a fraction of the budget, all the better for them. Similarly, despite Larian's multiple studios around the world, you can be damned certain they spent a lot less making Baldur's Gate 3 than BioWare do on whatever they crap out of late, but that didn't translate to a compromise in the experience (well, the interfaces are atrocious, but that's not a budgeting issue) and indeed it's sold as a "full price" AAA game.

In reality, "AAA" is first and foremost a price segment classification which serves marketing purposes, same way that film has the term "blockbuster", they both indicate the highest tier of entertainment in their respective mediums (and movies have their own exceptions, see District 9's $30 million budget). In normal circumstances, this should correlate to production budgets and competing products in the genre, the scope of the investment scales with what you can ask at the till, though sometimes you have exceptional circumstances, either for the better (Kingdom Come: Deliverance punching above its weight) or for the worse (No Man's Sky's devs lying through their fucking teeth). Bethesda had a somewhat similar thing going, their specialised tools and expertise allowing them to keep a relatively lower headcount while their titles, at least since Oblivion, were absolutely "blockbusters" - hell, Fallout 4, for example "broke Grand Theft Auto V's record for having the most concurrent online players in a Steam game not developed by Valve."

A flagship Bethesda release is most certainly an "event" in videogaming and even Starfield's reception proves that - when was the last time people spent three months raging over an Assassin's Creed being shit?
 
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Oblivion was made by a team of around 70 people. It was not even kind of what would be considered a AAA title unless you’re just using AAA as some stupid buzzword to mean every game released by a major publisher that was sold for the average retail price...which is kind of how some people seem to use it. It’s stupid to call Oblivion a AAA title when it’s coming out alongside games like Grand Theft Auto 4 and Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare. Nobody would say a movie that cost $100 million and a movie that cost $10 million fall into the same budgetary umbrella. You wouldn’t even say a $40 million or $50 million thing fell under the same budgetary umbrella as something that cost $10 million. Bethesda was not making big budget games until maybe Starfield. Fallout 4 had a team of around 100 people, Assassion’s Creed games at the same time had teams around 1,000 people. These two things do not occupy the same space.
That's irrelevant, it makes no difference to me, as the consumer, whether you spend €5 million or €50 million if the end product looks like it offers that €50 million experience, a comparable scope and level of finish. As consumers, we're only interested in the development budget because it typically indicates the scope of the product on offer, but it's the latter that interests us, not the former in and of itself.

Kingdom Come: Deliverance was made for something like €15-20 million, by that definition is should be a "AA" title, and yet I see absolutely nothing in terms of what it offers that makes it a "budget" title compared to, I dunno, Skyrim or Deus Ex: Human Revolution. If Warhorse managed to achieve a similar grade of experience for a fraction of the budget, all the better for them. Similarly, despite Larian's multiple studios around the world, you can be damned certain they spent a lot less making Baldur's Gate 3 than BioWare do on whatever they crap out of late, but that didn't translate to a compromise in the experience (well, the interfaces are atrocious, but that's not a budgeting issue) and indeed it's sold as a "full price" AAA game.

In reality, "AAA" is first and foremost a price segment classification which serves marketing purposes, same way that film has the term "blockbuster", they both indicate the highest tier of entertainment in their respective mediums (and movies have their own exceptions, see District 9's $30 million budget). In normal circumstances, this should correlate to production budgets and competing products in the genre, the scope of the investment scales with what you can ask at the till, though sometimes you have exceptional circumstances, either for the better (Kingdom Come: Deliverance punching above its weight) or for the worse (No Man's Sky's devs lying through their fucking teeth). Bethesda had a somewhat similar thing going, their specialised tools and expertise allowing them to keep a relatively lower headcount while their titles, at least since Oblivion, were absolutely "blockbusters" - hell, Fallout 4, for example "broke Grand Theft Auto V's record for having the most concurrent online players in a Steam game not developed by Valve."

A flagship Bethesda release is most certainly an "event" in videogaming and even Starfield's reception proves that - when was the last time people spent three months raging over an Assassin's Creed being shit?

What the fuck are you even going on about?

I say Bethesda games ARE NOT big budget titles, and I’m pointing out that Fallout 4 and Skyrim had developed teams of around 100 people and you just bring up Kingdom Come Deliverance like I was making the total opposite point. Looking at it, it seems that KCD at peak development may have had a larger team working on it that Skyrim.

Outside of the Star Wars MMORPG, and maybe that Anthem game, I’m not sure BioWare spends way more on their games than Larian did. And that’s not even to say Larian spent a ton. But BioWare don’t make huge big budget games. You might think they would because BioWare is a “big” known developer. But there were those tweets from some former Dead Space developer a number of years ago, and I think he brings up Mass Effect 2’s budget as being something like $40 million. It outperformed the bigger budget Dead Space 2... which is also why Dead Space 3 was like it was. They may have gotten a bump in budget for ME3 since the second game did well, but I doubt the other games got budgets bigger than that. EA probably wasn’t jumping to dump $40 million or more into a third Dragon Age game. And I wouldn’t be surprised if Andromeda cost the same or less than ME2 despite the seven years between them.

Why bring up Fallout 4’s 2015 Steam charts in relation to GTA5? The wiki page has more exact numbers. Fallout 4 shipped 12 million units in 24 hours, and then two years later Peter Hines said it sold better than Skyrim in the same amount of time without giving an exact number...so over 20 million it seems. But not so much over 20 million to give an exact number. The wiki page for GTA5 says Take-Two shipped 29 million in the first six weeks, and by the end of its second calendar year out was at 45 million. That Fallout 4 Steam chart record has been beat by a number of games, including Capcom Arcade Stadium.

I also did not say Bethesda’s games don’t sell well. I think I’ve even said they do sell well.

I still randomly come across new Youtube videos of people complaining about Assassin's Creed Valhalla from three years ago.
 

Zboj Lamignat

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Feb 15, 2012
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Only they weren’t big stuff. Their games sold well, but these games weren’t huge on the production side of things for their time. And they especially weren’t before Oblivion. Morrowind was around 40 people and was made by a Bethesda on the verge of going under. The original 1996 Resident Evil had a team almost double the size of Morrowind. The first Devil May Cry game has double the staff size of Morrowind. About as many people worked on the original 1991 Street Fighter 2 as worked on Morrowind.

Those credits also list every role a single voice actor does as its own unique credit for that count. Although it’s fairly easy to find Todd or someone from Bethesda saying: Fallout 4 had a development team of a little over 100 people. Which was not a huge team for a game coming out in 2015.

For a comparison, Final Fantasy 13 comes out in 2009 and had 200 people working on it at its peak. The game had more artist on the team than Fallout 4 had people developing Fallout 4.
You're using some really weird metrics and comparisons and I'm not gonna even venture into how reliable the data you're using is, since the number of people working on resident evil is as irrelevant as you can get. Since Daggerfall, their games share most of these characteristics: huge scope which was completely outside of reach for vast majority of other titles, extensive media coverage with multiple awards won and strong presence on different events, extensive marketing which was very noticeable even in my neck of the woods (that already at a time when 90%+ games had zero marketing), huge numbers of units moved and accordingly large communities, usage of famous actors, recognition outside of gaming community, push for multiplatform angle with great success and so on. I'm not sure on what planet do you need to live in to look at crpg/gaming landscape at a time of daggerfall's/morrowind's/oblivion's release and not think they were as big as you can possibly be.
 

Kev Inkline

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A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I read that for Skyrim it was 85 millions for development, 15 for marketing.
Completely unrealistic ratio, to put it mildly.
Yeah, that makes it look like they didn't do much marketing at all besides game journos and conventions for Skyrim at the beggining.
With F4 they upped their marketing game by the order of the magnitude.


Typical indie studio marketing approach. A real AAA studio would've used Leno or Letterman instead, right?
:neveraskedforthis:
 

ropetight

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I read that for Skyrim it was 85 millions for development, 15 for marketing.
Completely unrealistic ratio, to put it mildly.
Yeah, that makes it look like they didn't do much marketing at all besides game journos and conventions for Skyrim at the beggining.
With F4 they upped their marketing game by the order of the magnitude.


Typical indie studio marketing approach. A real AAA studio would've used Leno or Letterman instead, right?
:neveraskedforthis:

Then Leno is their go-to guy, since he outfoxed both Letterman and O'Brien out of their shows.


And he has nasty habit of collecting expensive cars, so he won't turn down average AAA studio.
 

Late Bloomer

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Jay_Leno_2019_crop.jpg
 

Gargaune

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What the fuck are you even going on about?
You said that "Bethesda doesn't make AAA games" based on their relatively smaller headcount and budgets. I disagreed because "AAA" is just videogaming's equivalent of the film industry's top-tier "blockbuster" market classification (which often but not always correlates directly to staffing) and that Bethesda's releases have certainly made that kind of splash.
 

tritosine2k

Erudite
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Dec 29, 2010
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1,494
avalanche makes AA games, not that it can't look better than AAA:


.

And why make a car game instead of silver shroud you can also play as ordinary character?

Who cares about avalanche n+1 deferred looking rendering engine that did fuck all with its realtime focus while John's RAGE has unmatched vista and distance rendering? Give me RAGE 1 with prerender weather anytime over "alsoran" deferred engine games.

Homefront 2 has prerender and it was obviously worth it . Will be the same on mobile, realtime AAA was just corner cutting.

(...)You’re planning on contracting a studio that makes open world sandbox games to do a new title. Do you have them make a follow-up to the older thing that sold terribly and isn’t well remembered by the few people that even played it, or do you have the same studio make some open world sandbox action game in the setting that’s sold over ten million copies for each of the three games you’ve released in that series so far? I’d say the smart money would be on Avalanche and id making a Fallout: Something. But Bethesda is apparently run by morons, so they had them make Rage 2.
(...)


Thing is realtime graphics and sandbox are maybe good match on a first sight but it's not really. The more you look it's less so.
AA also kinda rules out sandbox.
You don't have meaningful weather to act as sandbox feature-set. You don't even have meaningful transition from interior to exterior let alone weather. Realtime graphics is usually one thing: shit and barely runs.

Here are some of my posts highlighting AA+A sandbox issues:
https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/why-arent-there-more-skyrim-clones.141645/post-8747585
 
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tritosine2k

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You don't have meaningful weather to act as sandbox feature-set.

Well it's interesting thought experiment what Far Harbor would be when you don't want to accept certain compromise because realtime.

Note it's a popular "global illumination" "optimization" ( HACK) to omit fog (participating media).
Also note that's not a "thing" in movie quality cgi.
 

deuxhero

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Played F4 for first time to get a feel for vanilla game before I mod it into something else entirely.

Everyone (rightfully) complains about the fixed voiced protag, but I don't see anyone mention how utterly schizophrenic they are during mandatory dialog. Player character goes from paniced and freaked out at state of Vault 111 to suddenly admiring a piece of loot even though they have no idea what (if anything) it does, and back again before suddenly abandoning a unwillingness to touch corpses to rip off a dead man's arm and magically know how to work the complicated device they just looted.

I did like the first raider firefight I got into.

Any recommendations besides
SE
Unofficial Patch
FallUI
Extended Dialog Interface
Horizon
? What's the best no PC voice mod now?

Also any guides on how to get SE+mod organizer working on Linux?
 
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Gargaune

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Mar 12, 2020
Messages
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Any recommendations besides
A couple looks & feel-wise:
- Desperados Overhaul will make the game look like Fallout. Just keep in mind it'll probably make most custom settlement mods incompatible due to previs;
- any of the STALKER soundtrack mods to trick your brain with pleasant associations;
- Immersive HUD will let you look at the game that looks like Fallout and disable that stupid stealth indicator;

Gameplay-wise, I dunno what Horizon does, but my top suggestions would be:
- play in Survival but use a mod to configure it to your liking, the defaults are batcrap, my pick was Unlimited Survival Mode;
- I'd started toying with the Level Cap mod, though I didn't get too far. Anyway, set it to around 35 and suddenly the game has builds, almost like an RPG! You'd be locking yourself out of some top perks, but most gear should be on the drop lists by that point;
- No Combat Music: coupled with Immersive HUD, you might actually have an enemy get the drop on you, who knows.

And a couple of nice tweaks:
- Get Out Of My Face (Push Away Companions and NPCs): helpful in a (literally) tight spot and, more importantly, satisfying to use!
- QuickTrade lets you skip dialogue (and animations) with merchants when you don't feel like having the same exchange for the hundredth time;
- Bullet Counted Reload: in Bethesdaland, you load five bullets into a lever-action rifle, fire two, then load five more... this lets you leave Bethesdaland;
- Classic Holstered Weapons System isn't a big deal if you don't spend a lot of time in 3rd person, but when you do, it's nice not to have to pull a machinegun out of your ass.

Dunno about MO on Linux, but if you are using MO, you might wanna take advantage of its profile features and make a separate, encapsulated copy of the game. Todd's coming for your mods. There's only three things certain in life - death, taxes, and Todd automatically updating the shit out of your decade-old games.
 

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