First ZRPG screenshot

[Kaanyrvhok]

Lose it? Would it be too much to ask for an explanation?

You lose the ability to be distracted. Its also very difficult and possibly impractical to move characters as a unit or face enemies that move as a unit in TB combat.

Did you miss the part where I explained why it's a massive project that's almost a game in itself?

I dont know enough about Torque. Whats the major obstacle? Whats to stop you from giving the chair and tables some of the same principles as the zombies? You dont need the physics.

I’m just curious. A couple of my major design peeves are 3D games that don’t take advantage of being 3D, and combat that doesn't account for terrain.

 

[forgotmypasswordagain]

on the contrary i think that after a zombie apocalypse the libraries would be looted thoroughly because without (much) electricity people will have to read for fun instead of just turning on their zombie rpg games
also romance novels will replace pornography
unless rape replaces pornography
can zombies be safely raped once restrained?
this is a question of some urgency for me personally

 

[Murk]

Every table has one book open and two/three books closed and spread out evenly. It's unnatural. Fix it so that they are more irregular. Devil in in the details etc.

I don't think most people even bother to look at anything past a few secondary glimpses of "is there shit to loot or use here" in any RPG. it's just that this picture is the only thing given so everyone's suddenly an elite critic with a wagon load of 0.02 to give.

 

[Kron]

Atmospheric my ass.
It looks like a bookshop from the sims.

"Ok, so it's a zombie apocalypse. Guys! Let's make sure every single book is in its place, and everything is tidy!"

 

[Jora]

"Ok, so it's a zombie apocalypse. Guys! Let's make sure every single book is in its place, and everything is tidy!"

How is "Ok, so it's a zombie apocalypse. Guys! Let's take every single book from the shelves and throw them all over the room for the hell of it!" any better?

 

[Hobbit Lord of Mordor]

"Ok, so it's a zombie apocalypse. Guys! Let's make sure every single book is in its place, and everything is tidy!"

How is "Ok, so it's a zombie apocalypse. Guys! Let's take every single book from the shelves and throw them all over the room for the hell of it!" any better?

Maybe something in between the two extremes? Maybe?

 

[Imbecile]

I always find the responses to these teaser screenshots interesting. The screenshot itself doesn't show much of anything, but the response reveals those who are determined to love the game, and those who are determined to hate it.

 

[Murk]

I always find the responses to these teaser screenshots interesting. The screenshot itself doesn't show much of anything, but the response reveals those who are determined to love the game, and those who are determined to hate it.

I agree with this entirely. It's like when Dragon Age Origins teaser splash page was revealed there was already a dozen people either attacking or defending the game based on what the title logo looked like.

 

[Jora]

Maybe something in between the two extremes? Maybe?

Maybe? But without knowing anything about the backstory, is there much point to utilising sarcasm to point out "obvious flaws" in the setting? I thought the shot, even at this stage, was an improvement compared to AoD, and that's all I can say about the game at this point.

Now, I can understand that others feel the need to criticize the artistic direction, but acting as if the developers don't know how to handle their own setting, or that there is anything to be disappointed by, because of one pre-production screenshot (of a school library of all things) is a bit much even by Codex standards.

 

[denizsi]

This true? Where can I find it (interested in the Fallout 3 one)?

It's true, I have even made threads about it here (which understandably no one gave a fuck about; its FO3 after all) and at ESF. IIRC, I've last uploaded the beta to rapidshare or another file hosting domain and provided a link. Then somebody has PMmed me at ESF and asked for permission to upload it to one of those sites. I said ok. I don't know if he actually did it. Anyway if you can't find it, let me know and I'll dig the files. If you can, keep in mind that it still isn't quite finished. All it does is pause the game, activate the grid, move all enemies into the closest free hexagons before anyone/anything can do anything, kick in the "cursor interface" and then you can take your turns. A turn is a limited time (because I didn't implement action points) during which you can do anything, and the same for all critters. Then I quit because I got a terribly heavy flu which nailed me to bed for 2 months straight. After recovery, I've lost motivation because I've already achieved the most important parts (working turns and interface) and was satisfied as that was the challenge (and that when I went back to it, I couldn't recognize half of my own code and kept thinking "what the fuck was I thinking?" I usually write very detailed comments in the code in case I forget stuff, which I do a lot, but somehow, I hadn't done it that time). Originally I've intended to make it as close to original games as possible but that's just tedious work, not to mention no one gives a fuck about it.

 

[Kaanyrvhok]

How is "Ok, so it's a zombie apocalypse. Guys! Let's take every single book from the shelves and throw them all over the room for the hell of it!" any better?

Lol

A Library would be a great place to hide. Zombies cant read.

 

[Coyote]

I think that creating barricades is an excellent feature that would greatly enhance any game, but I think that it will be almost impossible [for a small team] to implement. If I'm wrong, show me how and I'll be very, very grateful.

I think you're overcomplicating it. Hell, even the method denizsi described seems more complex than is necessary to me. Think of something like Divine Divinity, where you can pick up and drag objects to different places. Add the ability to rotate objects 90 degrees around a vertical axis by pressing left and right, and maybe for some things like tables the ability to rotate them 90 degrees around a horizontal axis by pressing up and down. If an object is placed in a logical manner in a tile next to the door, have it add a set amount of points to the "HP" needed for zombies to break through that door (or if combat mode hasn't started, add a set amount to the time it takes them to break in). If the object is placed in an illogical manner, or if you're stupid enough to barricade a door from the wrong side, it doesn't, but maybe costs the zombies a few extra AP at the start of combat to knock down/climb over it, buying you time for an extra shot or two.

Edit: Come to think of it, a barricade system could be made even simpler. Instead of making objects placeable in any tile, just make it so that when you drag an object to the door, it snaps to place in a logical manner with a premade graphical representation. Though this would require a bit more work from the graphics designer.

Like you say, this is an RPG; there's no need to make a complex barricading simulator. And there's also no need to make every object usable in this way, just ones that would make sensible objects for a barricade (e.g., chairs, bookshelves, desks, tables, couches, beds). Hell, you can even make objects only movable as such outside of combat to avoid having to make AP calculations for moving them; your chars will probably be too distracted to waste time making barricades once combat has started, anyway. It hardly requires a "huge database of objects with stats and different combinations". This is an indie game; I don't think anyone expects the devs to devote a huge amount of time to making such a minor aspect of the gameplay perfectly realistic.

It does make sense to devote some time to it, though, as it's pretty relevant to the setting. Suppose you're in a room and hear/see a horde of zombies approaching from outside, too many for you to handle. What's the most sensible response? Barricade all the doors the zombies are approaching to buy yourself the time to do what you need to do in that room before fleeing (whether in the form of a fighting retreat or through some method other than the blocked doors). Smaller but tough zombie group approaching? Barricade all but one entrance to create a chokepoint for a while before they break through from the other direction(s). Making a last stand to protect some helpless NPCs, the rest of your party, or a MacGuffin of some sort? Have them escape through one exit and barricade it from the other side. And so on. Of course, if the design of the game is such that situations like these are unlikely to come up (e.g., all zombie encounters are in large, open areas), there's no reason for any sort of barricading system. This seems in line with what Annie and Bryan have described, although I would still expect some encounters to take place in small, enclosed areas.

With regards to the picture, it looks great to me; the graphics are better and more detailed than any indie game I've played and the shadows are pretty well-done (though it seems odd for a library to only have lights on one wall, especially since most schools employ ceiling lights). I don't see why people are criticizing it for not looking like zombies have ravaged it; given that the game takes place at the start of the zombie uprising, there would surely be several areas that are as of yet untouched. I have to echo the criticism a few others have made, though, about the objects seeming a little too perfectly placed/"symmetrical" (e.g., the chairs around each table are spaced perfectly, each table has one open book and 2-3 closed ones). It makes the location feel static/not "lived in" by actual people. A few discarded books on the floor, an empty table or one piled with a ton of books, placing some of the chairs in a bit more haphazard manner - these things would go a long way to making the location feel more genuine. [/wall of text]

 

[Murk]

Lol

A Library would be a great place to hide. Zombies cant read.

typical undead monster or scathing social commentary on the short comings of black people? you decide

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

I first thought that this screenshot was about as exciting an advertisment, as showing a piece of leather from the seats, to promote a new sportscar, but I was wrong.

The 'dex going full force on interior decoration was already a sight to behold.

But those walls of text, made by those who don't know, explaining to those who do, how to "easily" implement a feature that none of the people working on the game want to hear about, are just great.

 

[denizsi]

Edit: Come to think of it, a barricade system could be made even simpler. Instead of making objects placeable in any tile, just make it so that when you drag an object to the door, it snaps to place in a logical manner with a premade graphical representation. Though this would require a bit more work from the graphics designer.

Yes, that's what I tried to say with models being fixed to level geometry by simple collision detection, without the need to create "barricadable geometry" templates. As for the rest of what you said, you're right, I don't know why I complicated it that much. I didn't think of assigning regular HP to barricades as if the it was another "enemy" for the zombies because I didn't think of a game with HPs at all (my bad, I don't like HPs). But once you're doing barricades, a little more depth with getting materials to build stuff (eg. wooden furniture for boards, reinforcing larger objects with smaller pieces) is in order I think.

I have to echo the criticism a few others have made, though, about the objects seeming a little too perfectly placed/"symmetrical" (e.g., the chairs around each table are spaced perfectly, each table has one open book and 2-3 closed ones). It makes the location feel static/not "lived in" by actual people. A few discarded books on the floor, an empty table or one piled with a ton of books, placing some of the chairs in a bit more haphazard manner - these things would go a long way to making the location feel more genuine. [/wall of text]

I think most of the game will suffer from that "flaw" (in before VD goes "you just reached that conclusion from one single render" -no offense), if you could call it that, because objects will be static, as confirmed by Brian, and if they devote time to setting up a little more convincing configurations, similar to what you mentioned, it will unnecessarily restrict movement/action area in favour of level design.

I'd hope that they might still do some of that and add a "hop over" movement for tiles where there is a toppled chair on the ground or other similar debris (and a possibility to fall down, perhaps), but that kind of thing is too unorthodox for any mainstream/once-mainstream developer (almost said "for ex-Obsidian devs"; see I learned my lesson).

 

[denizsi]

But those walls of text, made by those who don't know, explaining to those who do, how to "easily" implement a feature that none of the people working on the game want to hear about, are just great.

What's even greater is those tiny bits of letters made by those who don't know what they don't and don't even make any effort to at least pretend that they know either. Perhaps I was wrong; Codex, even before ITS, is turning into ESF senior so fast, now you need to write a full-blown paper with fully working examples (where applicable) for anything to even make a point when you're in the minority and if you can't, you get ridiculed and whatnot (I can see the response to this coming. Please don't disappoint).

 

[Elhoim]

I think most of the game will suffer from that "flaw" (in before VD goes "you just reached that conclusion from one single render" -no offense), if you could call it that, because objects will be static, as confirmed by Brian, and if they devote time to setting up a little more convincing configurations, similar to what you mentioned, it will unnecessarily restrict movement/action area in favour of level design.

I will certainly make them more "irregular" within the confines of the tile.

I'd hope that they might still do some of that and add a "hop over" movement for tiles where there is a toppled chair on the ground or other similar debris (and a possibility to fall down, perhaps), but that kind of thing is too unorthodox for any mainstream/once-mainstream developer (almost said "for ex-Obsidian devs"; see I learned my lesson).

We are using the same tile system as AoD. One thing we can easily do is to set the tile height higher for some of the debris so you can "climb" them and move over them (you would be standing on them, though, which may look a little silly with some objects). Maybe, if we have time, we could add something similar to what you ask... Perhaps a "script object" that when you click on it plays an animation moving you to the other side of the obstacle. But that would be only usable by players... I think that a better solution might be to create a new tile type that allows movement over it but not standing on it, and when a character goes over it the animations changes to jumping or perhaps even climbing (adding a dexterity check to the tiles property would be quite interesting too).

Thanks for the idea! I'm not promising that we will implement it, but it will certainly go to the list of things that will be cool to have.

 

[Burning Bridges]

an awful lot of thread for an unremarkable screenshot

 

[Melcar]

Now just imagine when (if) the game comes out. Assplosions and shit.

 

[zenbitz]

I think there might be an elegant way to do some barricading without a mini-game explosion or scripting every possible barrier.

But first - you (generic you, not you ITSers) have to take a step back. What is the game purpose of barricades? Why would you (the player) ever not barricade a place if Z was about? Is there a downside? A cost? Does it require some special ability?

What are the benefits of barricading a room, or fortifying a location? Well, I suppose essentially it's to slow Z down. The amount of materials/effort/skill put into the barricade will determine "how much time" you gain (seconds, minutes, hours, days or even something permanent).

Let's call anything minutes or less tactical and anything longer strategic.

Strategic first: This is a bit odd for your typical cRPG. People don't usually have a place to themselves (sometimes) and if they do it's almost always a 'safe haven'. So if it's already safe you wouldn't need to make it safer. I can see implementing "base fortification" in a manner similar to a RTS game, where you spend time/skill/material to "upgrade" your base. For this, I would say that it would be best to just have different graphics for each level of fortress (assuming you would even want to bother to let PCs fortify locations long term).

Tactically:
Why would you create a temporary barrier? Or more to the point, why would NOT create one? It seems that it would not be too hard to have "some" movable objects in a room that you could push in front of stuff (most RPGs make a big sacrifice here in that not everything you see in the game it selectable/touchable/grabbable/searchable - so having some objects movable would not be that far off. Having ALL objects movable is probably outside the scope of most game/design teams, graphically.

What I would not try to do is to create "real" path blockers that prevent Z entry - but rather consider stuff to be essentially make the floor tiles they occupy "sticky" - that is they cost more MPs/APs to move through, or require the moving object to make some kind of "dex roll" to move out of the tile, or "str roll" to destroy the object (ugh, chair destruction animation).

The most practical reason to do this in a combat situation would be if you had Z coming at you from two directions, and you needed to slow down one group while dispatching the other.

The "sticky barricade" would work on NPC and PC humans and animals as well, although I assume the Z pathfinding algorithm is the stupidest. human NPC could use account for the stickyness of any given path in it's cost function.

To create the effect of "building" a barricade (in combat-time) you could have multiple objects' "stickyness" stack non-linearly (i.e, 2 chair + board together) is better than putting them next to each other). An "adhoc construction" skill roll (or whatever) could help make better barriers out of stuff as well.

 

[denizsi]

Being the butthurt emo I am by new ESF standards of the NeoCodex, I gave some more thought to this and among all the name-calling and "oh it's so hard, you don't know what you're talking about" faggotry, I just remembered that FO2 already had the fundamentals in place:

You can move/tell an NPC to move by right clicking on him/her and choosing push from the context menu. Metaphorically lobotomise his/her AI, replace the model and it's a heavy furniture that you can push.

You can plant items to/steal from NPCs. Take away his AI, replace the model, tie the items in NPC's inventory to his stats (mainly HP: you put boards/stuff, HP goes up automatically), and you have a barricade that can be reinforced with items.

You can kill NPCs and loot their bodies. Do the opposite of the previous paragraph: tie stats to inventory so certain items will be spawned in NPCs inventory upon death (HP goes down, "NPC" drops boards/stuff, preferably FUBAR). Replace the model, make those "certain items" boards or whatever and you have heavy furnitures that can be chopped up/deconstructed for materials or just plain broken/destroyed.

The player's model (in game sprite/paperdoll) changes when you wear different armor/clothing. Change the conditions that determine what changes player's appearance, tie it to presence of certain items in inventory. Replace the models/paperdolls with graphical representations of several stages of barricades and you have buildable barricades with nice graphical representations.

You can burn! NPCs in Fallout. There's even a very cute animation for it. They literally burn to ashes. Replaces the model and what do you know, you can even burn barricades. Isn't that awesome? Of course, the art is a lot of work, but we're talking mechanics here.

When NPCs are hit by explosives/melee attacks in Fallout, they're often/sometimes thrown several steps away or just fall down where they are. Replace the model and, oh boy, is this some basic representation of furniture being thrown around due to explosives/people kicking it or what?

And here's the real horror (not relevant to ZRPG): most of these must already be in place in AoD because in a sense AoD is very much like FO, so if only VD thought that barricading would be such an awesome must-have feature for AoD, that he simply had to have it, he (or rather Nick; he's the programmer, right?) would actually have a fairly easy starting point and would eventually fully implement it considering all the work that has already been done.

I'm not saying those things already in place are that easy to do themselves, but that if you can and did pull them in the first place, pulling something as mechanically simple as barricades can be ridiculously easy.

So before anybody else gives me the "walls of text from people who don't know shit talking to people who do" kind of bullshit, either elaborate on why you disagree and point out the flaws that would have to be such huge game-breakers for these examples not to be valid arguments, or just shut the fuck up, go suck a fuck and then go fuck yourself.

Enough with all this "ooh you make it sound so easy, you don't know shit" ridicule. Tetris mini-games, complex physics, tedious object construction... What the hell are you thinking, Whence the hell are you coming with these? It's simplicity multiplied, remember? Not Complex Realism Simulator Deluxe. You were supposed to bring simplicity to RPG design, not destroy it by complication... Bring balance to game elements, not leave them in mini games!

 

[Burning Bridges]

I think VD should have just said that they won't do physics, not hold lectures how insanely hard it is. That's what I find somewhat provoking too, besides that a forum (which hasn't recovered from DA) gets now spilled over by tedious ITS drivel, before we've seen anything that can be estimated. Doesn't this belong into RPG Design anyway? How desperate must one be to get so excited about a single screenshot of an empty library?

 

[denizsi]

Physics? Terrible creatures.

 

[Hobbit Lord of Mordor]

Neo-Codex doesn't do game design discussion anymore. They're "TLDR", or "inane" "lectures". Admire the pretty grafix and stfu.

 

[denizsi]

Well then I demand an amateur porn sub forum and 3D navigation between forums and threads. All these links, 2D lay outs... makes me feel like an old fart.